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Unfit For Work: The Startling Rise Of Disability In America

I think some over generalize too much, and may see their own battles as more difficult than they were, and not a good comparison to others.

It goes both ways BR. People overgeneralize that the poor are some helpless creatures running in quicksand trying to pay for everything with no hope for the future, and they also overgeneralize that personal responsibility and hardwork are the sole determinants of success. Both sides usually use more extreme examples to prove their case, and I think that it usually lies somewhere in between for any given individual. However, I do think that on average looking at an overall population, people are more likely to improve their circumstances when they make personally responsible choices and work hard; even if results may vary from person to person.
 
I don't blame anyone for the mistakes I made with my life other than myself, and after realizing that, and some pretty hard times, we clawed our way back to the middle class through hard work, and it was a good lesson learned. One that the kids watched, took in, and are better for having gone through it.

An internal locus of control is a pretty powerful thing.
 
It goes both ways BR. People overgeneralize that the poor are some helpless creatures running in quicksand trying to pay for everything with no hope for the future, and they also overgeneralize that personal responsibility and hardwork are the sole determinants of success. Both sides usually use more extreme examples to prove their case, and I think that it usually lies somewhere in between for any given individual. However, I do think that on average looking at an overall population, people are more likely to improve their circumstances when they make personally responsible choices and work hard; even if results may vary from person to person.

I do as well and will carry that thought forward, poor choices you usually lead to poor outcomes.
 
I don't blame anyone for the mistakes I made with my life other than myself, and after realizing that, and some pretty hard times, we clawed our way back to the middle class through hard work, and it was a good lesson learned. One that the kids watched, took in, and are better for having gone through it.

That is the meaning of life, in a nutshell. Make mistakes, learn from them, make your life better. Repeat. If you can teach you kids in the midst of it, all the better.:thumbs:
 
Oh, so you too didn't read the article?

Well, that's fine (I guess) but I wish you'd just come out and admit that you didn't read it.

To quote directly from the article you did not read and I did:

There's no diagnosis called disability. You don't go to the doctor and the doctor says, "We've run the tests and it looks like you have disability." It's squishy enough that you can end up with one person with high blood pressure who is labeled disabled and another who is not.

I could quote some more areas where it says disability is not well defined, but I think I have proven my point.
 
To quote directly from the article you did not read and I did:



I could quote some more areas where it says disability is not well defined, but I think I have proven my point.

You're right, because "disability" is a terminology for the program, not the condition, nor the level, or percentage of disability involved in any particular case. It really all depends on what they are awarding SSD payments for.
 
Statistics to back this up? I know a ton of hard working poor people who've never gotten anywhere. Blue collars mostly. Work 60-70 hour weeks just to get a week off every year. Education? $15K a year tuition averages? Good luck affording that if your family is a bunch of poor suckers working 8-5s just to make ends meet. Oh, then there's the military - yeah, vets finding jobs seems to be a problem. So what are the options VanceMack? Wishful thinking and pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps while going up a stair case? Heard it all before.

15k a year for tuition? Try $2500 a year.
 
When you are right for the wrong reasons, you just look foolish. I mean it's not like liberals didn't predict that we would have record dependency and record debts. We certainly did know this would happen. We just also knew, correctly, that it would be the consequence of an economy that is not generating enough jobs. Conservatives have this fantasy that it is largely because current dependent people are lazy.

Except when that view is backed by a study: http://research.upjohn.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1054&context=empl_research

. At one
welfare-to-work program, Project Match in Chicago, researchers found that 46 percent of the program clients lost their
first job by three months, 60 percent by six months, and 73 percent by twelve months (Berg, Olson and Conrad 1992).
This poor job retention is not due primarily to inadequate technical or "hard" skills. Welfare recipients
generally lose jobs because of problems with absenteeism and punctuality, or because of conflicts with supervisors and
co-workers
(Berg, Olson and Conrad 1992; Quint and Musick 1994). The one "hard skills" deficiency that is frequently
mentioned is problems in running a cash register.
Job retention problems occur in part because many welfare recipients find the circumstances of low-wage jobs
to be unfamiliar. The usual daily activities of an unemployed welfare recipient are comprised of child care and home
care, with no supervisors or co-workers to accommodate, and with the welfare recipient controlling her own schedule.

73% lose their jobs because they either don't show up, show up later, or argue with their boss (probably about having to actually do something to earn their paycheck).
 

Oh, so you did read the article! Wonderful.

Though, how you came to the stupid conclusion that it illustrates the problem of a "lack of a tight ship", whatever that means, is beyond me.

I mean, really? Disability isn't something that is well defined? THAT'S what you got from the article?

You clearly skimmed over it with the same typical conservative blinders I spoke of earlier, where you only read the portion you want to read and ignore everything else.
 
Oh, so you did read the article! Wonderful.

Though, how you came to the stupid conclusion that it illustrates the problem of a "lack of a tight ship", whatever that means, is beyond me.

I mean, really? Disability isn't something that is well defined? THAT'S what you got from the article?

You clearly skimmed over it with the same typical conservative blinders I spoke of earlier, where you only read the portion you want to read and ignore everything else.

Tell us babil, what's your thoughts on the ssdi article?
 
It goes both ways BR. People overgeneralize that the poor are some helpless creatures running in quicksand trying to pay for everything with no hope for the future, and they also overgeneralize that personal responsibility and hardwork are the sole determinants of success. Both sides usually use more extreme examples to prove their case, and I think that it usually lies somewhere in between for any given individual. However, I do think that on average looking at an overall population, people are more likely to improve their circumstances when they make personally responsible choices and work hard; even if results may vary from person to person.

I certainly agree it goes both ways, and would prefer the discussion focus not on personal stories and limited observations but actual statistical and factual information.

And while you make one if those "duh" statements, the fact remains that poverty will exist even if everyone makes near perfect choices. Odds are better for the individual with better choices, but not a cure all. Even when there was no welfare, there. We're poor people. And largely they suffered. History is full of their stories.
 
All I can say is that if taxpayers only knew...

one party derives electoral benefits by having as many people as possible attached to the government umbilical cord or sucking on the government tits

when you subsidize dependence you increase it
 
one party derives electoral benefits by having as many people as possible attached to the government umbilical cord or sucking on the government tits

when you subsidize dependence you increase it

That's bs. Just making excuses for losing. It's always someone's fault other than the candidate and party losing.
 
That's bs. Just making excuses for losing. It's always someone's fault other than the candidate and party losing.

I said nothing about losing. as a labor attorney I know how many people claim disability in order to suck on the public teat. I also know that the democratic party encourages people to be on the public teat so they have to support the teat being filled with milk.
 
I certainly agree it goes both ways, and would prefer the discussion focus not on personal stories and limited observations but actual statistical and factual information.

And while you make one if those "duh" statements, the fact remains that poverty will exist even if everyone makes near perfect choices. Odds are better for the individual with better choices, but not a cure all. Even when there was no welfare, there. We're poor people. And largely they suffered. History is full of their stories.

Poverty will always exist because it is usually a relative measure. Being poor in the U.S. and being poor in Kenya are two different things. That is sort of a "well duh," but everywhere in between the meaning of poverty changes continuously. We could reach a point in a distant where everyone in America owned their own home, owned two cars, put their kids through college without loans, and paid for their own healthcare; and this would be considered "barely getting by" because the family doesn't have three cars or a second house or whatever.

The burden of proof is on you here. The fact is that humans are not perfect and will never make perfect decisions. One can still gain a very sizable advantage over his or her peers while still making less then perfect choices. Its the major screw ups in life, such as having a kid out of wedlock, dropping out, not obtaining any marketable skills (not just from college) etc. that set people back a long way. Also if everyone made perfect decisions, then everyone would be perfectly productive and yes we would get rid of poverty quite extremely quickly. That is clearly never going to be the case however, but I have no doubt that if we at least improved the demographics of good decisions vs. bad decisions it would lead us to be better off. If we had less people who have a fatherless kid as a teenager, we would be better off because we would have less people being structurally held back from any sort of upward mobility.


Were there poor people before welfare? Yes. Some people struggled. But it is you who said we should look at statistics rather then personal stories and I would point out that we saw a vastly higher amount of wage growth when we did not have welfare and disability insurance than we have in the last 50 or something years when we did.

I hope you did read the article behind the OP, because what it is talking about is a very dangerous prescient.
 
I said nothing about losing. as a labor attorney I know how many people claim disability in order to suck on the public teat. I also know that the democratic party encourages people to be on the public teat so they have to support the teat being filled with milk.

When you speak to electoral benefits, you are talking about elections and making excuses for losing.
 
When you speak to electoral benefits, you are talking about elections and making excuses for losing.

wrong as usual
the people who lose are Americans not parties

but I note your support for putting as many people as possible on the public tit
 
Except when that view is backed by a study: http://research.upjohn.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1054&context=empl_research



73% lose their jobs because they either don't show up, show up later, or argue with their boss (probably about having to actually do something to earn their paycheck).

Are you ****ing kidding me? A study from 1997 doesn't illuminate anything about our current situation. Furthermore it is dishonest of you not to mention that it was from 1997, since that is exceedingly relevant to this matter. No one should listen to anything further you have to say on this, unless they have the time to fact check you first.
 
Poverty will always exist because it is usually a relative measure. Being poor in the U.S. and being poor in Kenya are two different things. That is sort of a "well duh," but everywhere in between the meaning of poverty changes continuously. We could reach a point in a distant where everyone in America owned their own home, owned two cars, put their kids through college without loans, and paid for their own healthcare; and this would be considered "barely getting by" because the family doesn't have three cars or a second house or whatever.

The burden of proof is on you here. The fact is that humans are not perfect and will never make perfect decisions. One can still gain a very sizable advantage over his or her peers while still making less then perfect choices. Its the major screw ups in life, such as having a kid out of wedlock, dropping out, not obtaining any marketable skills (not just from college) etc. that set people back a long way. Also if everyone made perfect decisions, then everyone would be perfectly productive and yes we would get rid of poverty quite extremely quickly. That is clearly never going to be the case however, but I have no doubt that if we at least improved the demographics of good decisions vs. bad decisions it would lead us to be better off. If we had less people who have a fatherless kid as a teenager, we would be better off because we would have less people being structurally held back from any sort of upward mobility.


Were there poor people before welfare? Yes. Some people struggled. But it is you who said we should look at statistics rather then personal stories and I would point out that we saw a vastly higher amount of wage growth when we did not have welfare and disability insurance than we have in the last 50 or something years when we did.

I hope you did read the article behind the OP, because what it is talking about is a very dangerous prescient.

Yes, I read the article. And I would not suggest that they may not be a problem. I would, however, suggest that there is more generalization than warranted. There is nothing shocking that hard times have led to some taking advantage of whatever they can.
 
wrong as usual
the people who lose are Americans not parties

but I note your support for putting as many people as possible on the public tit

You're diverting. You brought up electoral benefits, and are now trying to walk it back.
 
You're diverting. You brought up electoral benefits, and are now trying to walk it back.

you are not being truthful

I noted why the dems want so many people dependent and sucking on the public tit

I said nothing about outcomes

pointing out that say an athlete cheated may or may not be an excuse for him winning.

you are inferring things that were not part of my post

and you are trying to divert away from my assertion as to why the dems encourage disability status by trying to argue that my position is based on sour grapes

a complete fail and a bit of dishonesty on your part
 
you are not being truthful

I noted why the dems want so many people dependent and sucking on the public tit

I said nothing about outcomes

pointing out that say an athlete cheated may or may not be an excuse for him winning.

you are inferring things that were not part of my post

and you are trying to divert away from my assertion as to why the dems encourage disability status by trying to argue that my position is based on sour grapes

a complete fail and a bit of dishonesty on your part

Again, bs. And elections are always about winners and losing. The dependency is an excuse for losing.
 
Again, bs. And elections are always about winners and losing. The dependency is an excuse for losing.

psychobabble noted and rejected as diversion and dishonest

But thanks for failing to address my main point.
 
psychobabble noted and rejected as diversion and dishonest

But thanks for failing to address my main point.

You had no point, only a diversion. You're trying to walk back your comment. No party wants dependence. And the only way one can argue it is to link it to winning and losing. You're being dishonest not only in your false argument, but in pretending it isn't an excuse.
 
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