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Thread: Unfit For Work: The Startling Rise Of Disability In America

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    Re: Unfit For Work: The Startling Rise Of Disability In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    What matters is that we spend our time complaining about one end, but not the other. I think for consistency's sake, being honest about both, recognizing that humans tend to take advantage where they can, would go along way toward planning better.

    And yes, it is difficult to get a clear picture, but since was difficult mean abandon the effort and just assume things? No matter how difficult, we need to have a better fix on what is really the problem.
    1. wtf? I just said we need to fix both. This article is talking about disability specifically. That is the topic here. There are plenty of articles that talk about tax breaks. I mean ffs, I didn't realize we have to talk about literally every issue ever all at once.

    2. I think you're repeating what I just said. Rather then trying to crack down harder on those who "abuse" disability checks, our first steps should be tightening any loose bolts in the system. Preventing the easy pathways for fraud is the low hanging fruit on this issue.

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    Re: Unfit For Work: The Startling Rise Of Disability In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    No, I thin it is honest and not deflection. In fact, to call it deflections is actually more real deflection that anything I do. Why is the poor taking advantage of the system worse than the wealthy? This is a fair question.



    The trouble is often those who don't question what they think is clear often are wrong. It is often much better to actually be able to support your conclusions. Saying it is difficult to do, so it's clear is kind of weak, don't ya think?
    His original points still stand. You're making serious abuses of the false dichotomy, psychogenetic, irrelevant conclusions, loaded question fallacies as well as circular reasoning and begging the question. If you really think that your arguments are justifications for disability abuse, then I would challenge you to have a serious look in the mirror and decide whether you would rather live your life pragmatically appealing to logic or living it sheepishly appealing to rhetoric.

    Unless of course, you actually do take what was in the article seriously and think that this is something we should deal with. In which case, why do you see the need to make it necessary to talk about corporate theft or fraud in a topic about disability abuse? That is a subject which deserves its own attention, not just as some shoe in on a completely seperate topic. And who exactly are you saying only talks about one and not the other? I say we need to review the rules of both, and think of how we can eliminate the driving force of each. But to be honest, dragging that topic into this one gives me the impression that you are attempting to derail the debate without actually addressing any of the points being raised.

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    Re: Unfit For Work: The Startling Rise Of Disability In America

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    His original points still stand. You're making serious abuses of the false dichotomy, psychogenetic, irrelevant conclusions, loaded question fallacies as well as circular reasoning and begging the question. If you really think that your arguments are justifications for disability abuse, then I would challenge you to have a serious look in the mirror and decide whether you would rather live your life pragmatically appealing to logic or living it sheepishly appealing to rhetoric.

    Unless of course, you actually do take what was in the article seriously and think that this is something we should deal with. In which case, why do you see the need to make it necessary to talk about corporate theft or fraud in a topic about disability abuse? That is a subject which deserves its own attention, not just as some shoe in on a completely seperate topic. And who exactly are you saying only talks about one and not the other? I say we need to review the rules of both, and think of how we can eliminate the driving force of each. But to be honest, dragging that topic into this one gives me the impression that you are attempting to derail the debate without actually addressing any of the points being raised.
    Outstanding post! Couldn't have said it better my self....
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Unfit For Work: The Startling Rise Of Disability In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut View Post
    http://apps.npr.org/unfit-for-work/






    I found this quite an eye opening article. Quite a failure of our social security/welfare/disability system where private companies are cooking-the-books at the welfare office and children are being held back in order to receive disability benefits.

    Perhaps, it's time for an overhaul of SS/disability?
    Forrest Gump was just a movie. People don't just overcome disabilities like that in real life. Exactly what disabilities are you talking about that kids can learn to overcome, but instead choose to remain disabled?

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    Re: Unfit For Work: The Startling Rise Of Disability In America

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    His original points still stand. You're making serious abuses of the false dichotomy, psychogenetic, irrelevant conclusions, loaded question fallacies as well as circular reasoning and begging the question. If you really think that your arguments are justifications for disability abuse, then I would challenge you to have a serious look in the mirror and decide whether you would rather live your life pragmatically appealing to logic or living it sheepishly appealing to rhetoric.

    Unless of course, you actually do take what was in the article seriously and think that this is something we should deal with. In which case, why do you see the need to make it necessary to talk about corporate theft or fraud in a topic about disability abuse? That is a subject which deserves its own attention, not just as some shoe in on a completely seperate topic. And who exactly are you saying only talks about one and not the other? I say we need to review the rules of both, and think of how we can eliminate the driving force of each. But to be honest, dragging that topic into this one gives me the impression that you are attempting to derail the debate without actually addressing any of the points being raised.
    You may want to read what I responded to closer. TD makes the statement that in effect says democrats allow abuses for political gain, winning elections. That part f his post I challenged and called it bs. I called it that because it is bs.

    As fr the issue, I have stated some review of standards seem appropriate, but I believe many are leaping over the edge without really knowing how many are slipping through unjustly. I suggest, which I think is reasonable, that instead of demonizing large groups, we see specifically how large the problem really is.

    J throws around a lot if terms he gets wrong. I think you are just focusing on the wrong part of TDs post.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Unfit For Work: The Startling Rise Of Disability In America

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    1. wtf? I just said we need to fix both. This article is talking about disability specifically. That is the topic here. There are plenty of articles that talk about tax breaks. I mean ffs, I didn't realize we have to talk about literally every issue ever all at once.

    2. I think you're repeating what I just said. Rather then trying to crack down harder on those who "abuse" disability checks, our first steps should be tightening any loose bolts in the system. Preventing the easy pathways for fraud is the low hanging fruit on this issue.
    I'm saying you don't really understand the problem. From the article:

    Part of the rise in the number of people on disability is simply driven by the fact that the workforce is getting older, and older people tend to have more health problems.

    (Snip)

    When you are an adult applying for disability you have to prove you cannot function in a "work-like setting." When you are a kid, a disability can be anything that prevents you from progressing in school. Two-thirds of all kids on the program today have been diagnosed with mental or intellectual problems.

    (Snip)

    Somewhere around 30 years ago, the economy started changing in some fundamental ways. There are now millions of Americans who do not have the skills or education to make it in this country.

    Politicians pay lip service to this problem during election cycles, but American leaders have not sat down and come up with a comprehensive plan.

    In the meantime, federal disability programs became our extremely expensive default plan. The two big disability programs, including health care for disabled workers, cost some $260 billion a year.


    Now instead of saying its terrible, the people are evil leeches, wouldn't it be better to be more comprehensive address the causes of the problems.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Unfit For Work: The Startling Rise Of Disability In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I'm saying you don't really understand the problem. From the article:

    Part of the rise in the number of people on disability is simply driven by the fact that the workforce is getting older, and older people tend to have more health problems.

    (Snip)

    When you are an adult applying for disability you have to prove you cannot function in a "work-like setting." When you are a kid, a disability can be anything that prevents you from progressing in school. Two-thirds of all kids on the program today have been diagnosed with mental or intellectual problems.

    (Snip)

    Somewhere around 30 years ago, the economy started changing in some fundamental ways. There are now millions of Americans who do not have the skills or education to make it in this country.

    Politicians pay lip service to this problem during election cycles, but American leaders have not sat down and come up with a comprehensive plan.

    In the meantime, federal disability programs became our extremely expensive default plan. The two big disability programs, including health care for disabled workers, cost some $260 billion a year.


    Now instead of saying its terrible, the people are evil leeches, wouldn't it be better to be more comprehensive address the causes of the problems.
    See point #2.

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    Re: Unfit For Work: The Startling Rise Of Disability In America

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    See point #2.
    If you believe that supports his point, you've misread it. Fixing the problems are costly, difficult, and often requiring more then elected leaders. So it has little to do with his claim. Having people dependent for votes s not what that is saying.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Unfit For Work: The Startling Rise Of Disability In America

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    You may want to read what I responded to closer. TD makes the statement that in effect says democrats allow abuses for political gain, winning elections. That part f his post I challenged and called it bs. I called it that because it is bs.

    As fr the issue, I have stated some review of standards seem appropriate, but I believe many are leaping over the edge without really knowing how many are slipping through unjustly. I suggest, which I think is reasonable, that instead of demonizing large groups, we see specifically how large the problem really is.

    J throws around a lot if terms he gets wrong. I think you are just focusing on the wrong part of TDs post.
    I don't think J is wrong, but I would agree in with a softer tone to his statements. Democrats are sympathetic to disability insurance, and it is a knee jerk reaction for them to be opposed to anything that may be framed as "anti-disability." Any significant altercation to the structure of the disability system is seen as an "attack on disabled Americans." Heck, sometimes even bringing up the issue is seen as an "attack on disabled Americans." Whether or not they mean malicious intent by their stance on the issue is up for personal interpretation, (although I usually am suspicious at such hypersensitivity to an issue).


    People are leaping over the edge because they feel duped on the issue. It's sort of like studying for two weeks to ace a big exam, only to find out that the person sitting next to you copied all your answers. Maybe that person isn't a "bad" person. Maybe they had something going on that put them on the edge of desperation. Maybe they just don't have what it takes to succeed in the class no matter how hard they try. Or maybe they are just ****ing lazy. No matter how you slice and dice it, it isn't fair to you who got the A, and more importantly it isn't fair to the rest of the class. Disability insurance is meant to be for people who are physically unable to work, and treatment that would allow them to work isn't possible. That's it. It isn't meant to be a cop out for those who have been "left behind" in the labor force. Also, being "unable to keep up" with a changing job market isn't a justification for pretending to be "disabled." That isn't the purpose of the program. Period.

    Lastly, it would be a flawed (by design) study to see how many people are "abusing" disability benefits when the qualifications for disability benefits are not well defined. That is my point, maybe you only find half of 1% of blatant fraud within the system, but that would be completely ignoring the number of people who "legitimately" qualified due to either ambiguous standards or exaggerated hardships. The rule changes need to come first as a proactive measure rather then a reactive one to some "study" that was flawed before it was even conducted.

    Overall, it seems you think this is an issue, you are just skeptical of it being a "big" issue.
    (BTW, no its not that they are just "getting older" considering all the statistics in the article are strictly about the working aged on disability.)

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    Re: Unfit For Work: The Startling Rise Of Disability In America

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    I don't think J is wrong, but I would agree in with a softer tone to his statements. Democrats are sympathetic to disability insurance, and it is a knee jerk reaction for them to be opposed to anything that may be framed as "anti-disability." Any significant altercation to the structure of the disability system is seen as an "attack on disabled Americans." Heck, sometimes even bringing up the issue is seen as an "attack on disabled Americans." Whether or not they mean malicious intent by their stance on the issue is up for personal interpretation, (although I usually am suspicious at such hypersensitivity to an issue).
    The original comment was TDs. J just jumped in to complain.

    Knee jerk reactions go both ways. I won't argue otherwise. But there is. Belief concerning fairness as strong as what conservatives hold. No one is really in favor of abuse. Often what we argue about is what side we err on. I don't mind a call to review standards and address issues. What I mind is the claim that a group is universally moochers, or that a party wants such leeches to gain votes.


    People are leaping over the edge because they feel duped on the issue. It's sort of like studying for two weeks to ace a big exam, only to find out that the person sitting next to you copied all your answers. Maybe that person isn't a "bad" person. Maybe they had something going on that put them on the edge of desperation. Maybe they just don't have what it takes to succeed in the class no matter how hard they try. Or maybe they are just ****ing lazy. No matter how you slice and dice it, it isn't fair to you who got the A, and more importantly it isn't fair to the rest of the class. Disability insurance is meant to be for people who are physically unable to work, and treatment that would allow them to work isn't possible. That's it. It isn't meant to be a cop out for those who have been "left behind" in the labor force. Also, being "unable to keep up" with a changing job market isn't a justification for pretending to be "disabled." That isn't the purpose of the program. Period.

    Lastly, it would be a flawed (by design) study to see how many people are "abusing" disability benefits when the qualifications for disability benefits are not well defined. That is my point, maybe you only find half of 1% of blatant fraud within the system, but that would be completely ignoring the number of people who "legitimately" qualified due to either ambiguous standards or exaggerated hardships. The rule changes need to come first as a proactive measure rather then a reactive one to some "study" that was flawed before it was even conducted.

    Overall, it seems you think this is an issue, you are just skeptical of it being a "big" issue.
    (BTW, no its not that they are just "getting older" considering all the statistics in the article are strictly about the working aged on disability.)
    I don't think anyone has been duped. I think there are major changes in circumstances forcing some to us disability as a fall back, as the article in op briefly touches on. Sure there are some people abusing the system (how many is unknown), just as there is at all levels.

    And I think it is an issue, but one that needs to be dealt more by addressing the system and not demonizing people.

    I didn't mean to ignore your study question. Regardless of how well defined it is or isn't, we can't make any claims with certainty without know that information.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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