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Thread: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old [W:245]

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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    PS where do you live? I don't lock my doors either, but I live in the boonies. And if someone wanted to break in, they could just smash a window without it being heard. But when I go into the city, I don't leave money sitting on my care seat, or my car doors unlocked
    I lived in New Orleans for most of my life, and now I live in Stockton. :}

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No, I am not. I am pointing out bad people exist in the world, and the first line of defense from such people starts with their potential victims.
    The first line of defense is teaching 17 year old boys that rape isn't acceptable behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Nope, there is a difference in blaming her and pointing out that everyone has an individual responsibility for guranteeing their own safety.

    Honestly, the idea that people are taking offense to common sense practices, and seeing them as an attack on the victim, is about as absurd as you can get.
    Among the most-repeated "rules" of young drinking are to drink around those you are familiar with because if something happens (like blacking out because you drank too much) then you are safe because you are not around strangers. She was at a party with a lot of people she considered friends and classmates, with people who have the ability to take pictures and video with the click of a button. Literally the only other option she could have taken was to not drink at all, and in that case we should just tell all women not to drink because rapists exist.

    She: drank among friends and classmates and in a public place (ie not in a back alley where nobody can see what happens). Those are common sense practices for keeping yourself safe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    I don't know about you, but I never got to pick my classmates and surely being such never guaranteed moral character
    No, but you do have friends, and friends typically tend to not let you get raped.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    actually some kids do aim for such
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No, I'm pointing to the fact that she got blacked out drunk. Unless she was forced into such a state, the responsibility for that falls on her shoulders
    She was drugged, according to leaked documents, her own statements, and the statements of others.

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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    She should not have to act intelligently to be safe in this regard. It should be a valid assumption that if you get drunk, your classmates will not rape you.
    There are a lot of things that should be that never can be and never will be. It is never going to be safe to drink yourself into a stupor in a crowd full of people you don't trust intimately.

    There's no doubt that rape culture contributed to this situation-- everything about this case screams that the perpetrators thought what they were doing was perfectly socially acceptable, that they were entitled to do whatever they wanted with a young woman who was under their power. But there's also no doubt that she was directly personally responsible for putting herself under their power; that's neither blaming her nor shaming her, that is simply acknowledging the facts of the situation. Saying that other young women should avoid making the same mistakes is likewise not promoting rape culture, it is simply acknowledging the reality that rape is a thing that happens and the reality of the circumstances under which the vast majority of rapes do happen.

  3. #153
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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
    Among the most-repeated "rules" of young drinking are to drink around those you are familiar with because if something happens (like blacking out because you drank too much) then you are safe because you are not around strangers.


    She: drank among friends and classmates and in a public place (ie not in a back alley where nobody can see what happens). Those are common sense practices for keeping yourself safe.
    Wait, so you are saying there are a set of unspoken rules that kids should follow to prevent themselves from becoming victims?!? ....No ****, genius.I'm pointing out the same thing. Yet, for some reason, you're accusing me of blaming the victim.

    Also, getting passed out drunk in a public space isn't a good idea either. And none of these points change if she was drugged. They still apply, just not to this particular case

    Quote Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
    The first line of defense is teaching 17 year old boys that rape isn't acceptable behavior.
    well we can pointlessly argue over what element is more important, but the fact is, you can run every kid through a 100 hours of sensitivity training and you will still be stuck with the fact that some people are still going to commit rape. So, you still need to focus on the type of rules you cite above
    Last edited by Dr. Chuckles; 03-18-13 at 04:21 PM.

  4. #154
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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Yet, for some reason, you're accusing me of blaming the victim.
    I never said that; in fact, I said that what you are saying simply contributes to the culture that makes 17 year old boys think it's okay to rape a drugged girl. I apologize if you thought otherwise.

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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
    I never said that; in fact, I said that what you are saying simply contributes to the culture that makes 17 year old boys think it's okay to rape a drugged girl.
    So, again, what makes you citing the same type of unspoken rules any different?

    FYI: there is no difference and citing such common sense rules does nothing to facilitate "rape culture"

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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    She isn't guilty for getting raped. How about instead of telling women that they need to do X, Y, and Z to not get raped, we just tell men to not rape women?
    How about you tell lions and sharks not to attack humans while you're at it?
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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    I think we already make it pretty clear that rape is bad. The problem is that some people just don't care.
    There's a lot more than just rape that we teach as wrong and people can't obey worth a darn.
    "With me everything turns into mathematics."
    "It is not enough to have a good mind. The main thing is to use it well."
    "It is truth very certain that, when it is not in one's power to determine what is true, we ought to follow what is more probable." -- Rene Descartes

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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    If you read the article, you see that Westlake took his friends keys because he was too drunk to drive safely. He then walked right by a girl being raped without lifting a finger. Somehow, our societies push to stop drunk driving got through to that kid. The problem is that we have no such societal pressure against rape. The perpetrators clearly bought into the "rape is only a violent stranger holding a knifes to girls throat" nonsense. Its possible that the crime could have prevented if somebody had put out a hokey PSA with a "Having sex with someone who is unconscious is a rape" and "Friends don't let friends commit felony sex offenses" line.

    Our society has been blaming rape victims for centuries without much result. Its time that we focus on something else. We obviously can't prevent all rapes, but we can do much better than a culture where victims are too ashamed to report crimes and bystanders will ignore sexual assault happening right in front of them.

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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by rathi View Post
    If you read the article, you see that Westlake took his friends keys because he was too drunk to drive safely. He then walked right by a girl being raped without lifting a finger. Somehow, our societies push to stop drunk driving got through to that kid. The problem is that we have no such societal pressure against rape. The perpetrators clearly bought into the "rape is only a violent stranger holding a knifes to girls throat" nonsense. Its possible that the crime could have prevented if somebody had put out a hokey PSA with a "Having sex with someone who is unconscious is a rape" and "Friends don't let friends commit felony sex offenses" line.

    Our society has been blaming rape victims for centuries without much result. Its time that we focus on something else. We obviously can't prevent all rapes, but we can do much better than a culture where victims are too ashamed to report crimes and bystanders will ignore sexual assault happening right in front of them.
    Friends don't let friends rape drunk girls.

    Maybe this verdict will help get that message out.

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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    The girl was in a "drunken stupor". I'm not saying she had it coming but if a 16 year old girl gets drunk and passes out in the midst of drunk 16 year old boys she has to take partial responsibility for the results. The boys were drunk and stupid and so was she.
    C'mon dude, that's no excuse for these clowns to rape her. You're smarter than that, my friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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