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Thread: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old [W:245]

  1. #141
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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    I am not saying that we wouldn't have rape, I am saying that situations like this would be less likely to happen and we need to stop victim-blaming, rather than actually holding people accountable for their actions. Getting passed out drunk is not a crime, it does not give anyone the excuse to rape people.
    I don't even think Sawyer suggested it was an excuse to rape anyone. But getting passed out drunk around a bunch of people you don't really know does clearly increase your chances of being victimized.

    Is that fair? No. But it's a reality we have to live with

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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    I am not talking about the culture in your town, I am talking about American culture.
    There's no such thing.

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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    She should not have to act intelligently to be safe in this regard.
    normative vs positivist = what ought to be isn't exactly what is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    It should be a valid assumption that if you get drunk, your classmates will not rape you.
    right, people in general should not be victimized. No one disagrees with this. The problem though is that people will victimize you. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow. But if you make yourself an easy target, someone eventually will


    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You are blaming the victim.
    No, it's pointing out the notion that people need to protect themselves. Do you lock your doors, or let anyone in your home? No, and why not?


    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    They are unrelated. She made mistakes. Those mistakes did not cause her to be raped.
    do you think it's easier to victimize someone when they are passed out drunk?

  4. #144
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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    There's no such thing.
    Actually there is. Here are some examples. (http://www.plu.edu/voices/widgets/do...pe-culture.pdf)
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

  5. #145
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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    No, it's pointing out the notion that people need to protect themselves. Do you lock your doors, or let anyone in your home? No, and why not?
    No, I do not lock my doors; in fact, literally every day I keep my front door open and for most of the day it's unlocked. My back door is often open as well. I have never had someone take advantage of that fact despite years of living here, because the default state of the human body is not thief; neither is the default state of a male rapist.

    Here's the thing - by saying you have to make decisions to make yourself "safer" you're taking the responsibility of the attack off of the rapists and onto the victim. Even if you aren't saying she deserved it, that's the kind of culture that statements like "she put herself at risk" propagates.

    Further, she's among classmates. I don't think she decided at the start of the night that she was going to get blacked-out drunk and become unconscious; I sincerely doubt that she wanted to become so inebriated she was literally unable to function. She made the choice to get intoxicated among friends and classmates, and that's the only choice she made. By saying she didn't take precautions, you're disregarding that any choice made after that (to continue drinking well past the point of where you're making informed decisions) isn't a conscious choice that she probably stopped to think about.
    Last edited by Velociraptor; 03-18-13 at 12:45 PM. Reason: wording

  6. #146
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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
    No, I do not lock my doors; in fact, literally every day I keep my front door open and for most of the day it's unlocked. My back door is often open as well. I have never had someone take advantage of that fact despite years of living here, because the default state of the human body is not thief; neither is the default state of a male rapist.

    Here's the thing - by saying you have to make decisions to make yourself "safer" you're taking the responsibility of the attack off of the rapists and onto the victim. Even if you aren't saying she deserved it, that's the kind of culture that statements like "she put herself at risk" propagates.

    Further, she's among classmates. I don't think she decided at the start of the night that she was going to get blacked-out drunk and become unconscious; I sincerely doubt that she wanted to become so inebriated she was literally unable to function. She made the choice to get intoxicated among friends and classmates, and that's the only choice she made. By saying she didn't take precautions, you're disregarding that any choice made after that (to continue drinking well past the point of where you're making informed decisions) isn't a conscious choice that she probably stopped to think about.
    No you aren't. Nobody's done that, actually.

    You're taking a risk leaving your door open. If you are robbed, I wouldn't say the robber is less guilty or that your careless behavior negates their criminal activity. They're still deserving of punishment for their illegal actions. Their decisions and your decisions are entirely separate until they come together to create the scenario in which you provide easy access and they take advantage of it. It doesn't de-victimize you in the slightest to point out that you created a situation in which their actions were made easier.
    "Hmmm...Can't decide if I want to watch "Four Houses" or give myself an Icy Hot pee hole enema..." - Blake Shelton


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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
    No, I do not lock my doors; in fact, literally every day I keep my front door open and for most of the day it's unlocked. My back door is often open as well. I have never had someone take advantage of that fact despite years of living here, ***because the default state of the human body is not thief; neither is the default state of a male rapist.***
    No one suggested it was. What was suggested was that people exist that will take advantage of such things.

    PS where do you live? I don't lock my doors either, but I live in the boonies. And if someone wanted to break in, they could just smash a window without it being heard. But when I go into the city, I don't leave money sitting on my care seat, or my car doors unlocked



    Quote Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
    Here's the thing - by saying you have to make decisions to make yourself "safer" you're taking the responsibility of the attack off of the rapists and onto the victim.
    No, I am not. I am pointing out bad people exist in the world, and the first line of defense from such people starts with their potential victims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
    Even if you aren't saying she deserved it, that's the kind of culture that statements like "she put herself at risk" propagates.
    Nope, there is a difference in blaming her and pointing out that everyone has an individual responsibility for guranteeing their own safety.

    Honestly, the idea that people are taking offense to common sense practices, and seeing them as an attack on the victim, is about as absurd as you can get.



    Quote Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
    Further, she's among classmates.
    I don't know about you, but I never got to pick my classmates and surely being such never guaranteed moral character

    Quote Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
    I don't think she decided at the start of the night that she was going to get blacked-out drunk and become unconscious; I sincerely doubt that she wanted to become so inebriated she was literally unable to function.
    actually some kids do aim for such


    Quote Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
    She made the choice to get intoxicated among friends and classmates, and that's the only choice she made. By saying she didn't take precautions, you're disregarding that any choice made after that (to continue drinking well past the point of where you're making informed decisions) isn't a conscious choice that she probably stopped to think about.
    No, I'm pointing to the fact that she got blacked out drunk. Unless she was forced into such a state, the responsibility for that falls on her shoulders

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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    Actually there is. Here are some examples. (http://www.plu.edu/voices/widgets/do...pe-culture.pdf)
    "Glorifying violence, whether it is through advertising, movies, books, magazines, TV shows, etc., or in real life. "

    Most people can distinguish between fantasy and reality. Honestly, who ever wrote that needs to take a step back from sloppy theorizing and experience a bit of the real world

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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    Actually there is. Here are some examples.
    You said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    I am talking about American culture.
    You did not link to any example of American culture.

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    Re: Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

    Quote Originally Posted by tessaesque View Post
    No, those mistakes put her at risk of becoming a victim. And she most certainly has a responsibility to make decisions that do NOT put her at risk.

    It should be a valid assumption that if you get fall-down drunk you are at risk of any number of dangers...from alcohol poisoning, to drowning in your own vomit, to getting into a car w/a drunk driver, to serious injury, to rape.
    The reactions in this thread is why it's frustrating to ever push this notion. Tucker and I did it in a thread a while back and every stereotype imaginable was placed on us because of what people want to assume and stereotype rather than anything we said.

    On one hand, you DO have the people who are placing equal blame on the victim, or are actively minimizing the blame on the others ("16 year old boys think with their penis") while going over the top in the condemnation of the girl in this case. On the other hand, you have the folks who basically scream "YOU'RE BLAMING THE VICTIM" if you even go so far as to even suggest that a poor choice was made on their behalf. Debates about this become so much like those of Abortion and some others, where most involved simply stereotype anyone into whatever extreme most closely sounds like the persons argument.

    It's part of the issue with rape in this country. At one time it was way over the top horrible how people would blame the woman, focus on the woman, minimize the mans actions, etc. But that caused such a hyper sensitivity to it where you can't even bring up common sense type of statements into the equation without people acting like you're supporting the rapist.

    If you get fall down black out drunk then that means you choose to take actions that placed you at a higher risk for something seriously bad to happen to you. You say that after someone gets mugged and people nod their hands. You say that after someone gets their keys stolen and people nod their heads. You say that after someone has their friend put a photo of them on facebook and it causes them to get fired and people nod their heads. You say that after someone gets raped and by god you were slapping the rapist on the back saying "Good job bro, get her again!".

    To the story itself, the guys getting off with only that much is ridiculous. Sometimes that grey area age in the late teens causes some major problems in terms of punishment, and this seems to be one of them. One of the things that pisses me off so much when people start throwing around the "supporting the rapist" type of accusations is that there's few things I hate more than people who would do this kind of thing. They're the utter scum of the earth, and it's affected a number of folks close to me in my life. I won't shed a tear if that sex offender label causes them significant problems the rest of their lives...they'll still be getting off easy.

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