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Thread: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    It has now become more a matter of the coverup than the crime(s), for the coverup shows that for too many in the hierarchy and far too often, denying the crime was more important than stopping the predators.
    The point to remember here is that the church has improved, and I do not know of any evidence that they are currently covering it up. If some one was molested 20 years ago and it was covered up then, and it comes out now, it is not evidence that the church is still covering things up.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    1) Where was the statement that "they should not be punished"

    2) You're contradicting yourself when you're implying the issue is how the message is delivered and then turn around and again claim it's simply a case of "making excuses".

    If you're asking me was it a dumb thing to say in light of the realities of how a majority of people treat almost anything out of a Catholic persons mouth regarding pedophilia/chlid molestation and what's occured within the church then I'd say "absolutely". However that's not what people have been by and large talking about in this thread. The topic hasn't been focused on the presentation and how it comes across poorly, but the content itself. My posts were not railing against the presentation or the perception because that's not what's been being focused on. My posts have gone the way they were because people seem to have an issue with the substance, and I think there's a very reasonable and realistic argument to be made along the line of what he's actually saying. Some people in this thread have been happy to make assumptions and guesses towards the intent and thoughts behind his words in the most negative way possible and to criticize for it. Those people are in their right to do that. I'm suggesting however that with no more, and perhaps less, assumptions on my part that the statements he's making are reasonable and understandable while in no way "excusing" the action as being okay.

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh goody, another chance to bash the Catholic church...
    See you in the "attack Islam" threads!
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    1) Where was the statement that "they should not be punished"

    2) You're contradicting yourself when you're implying the issue is how the message is delivered and then turn around and again claim it's simply a case of "making excuses".

    If you're asking me was it a dumb thing to say in light of the realities of how a majority of people treat almost anything out of a Catholic persons mouth regarding pedophilia/chlid molestation and what's occured within the church then I'd say "absolutely". However that's not what people have been by and large talking about in this thread. The topic hasn't been focused on the presentation and how it comes across poorly, but the content itself. My posts were not railing against the presentation or the perception because that's not what's been being focused on. My posts have gone the way they were because people seem to have an issue with the substance, and I think there's a very reasonable and realistic argument to be made along the line of what he's actually saying. Some people in this thread have been happy to make assumptions and guesses towards the intent and thoughts behind his words in the most negative way possible and to criticize for it. Those people are in their right to do that. I'm suggesting however that with no more, and perhaps less, assumptions on my part that the statements he's making are reasonable and understandable while in no way "excusing" the action as being okay.
    From the OP article:

    "Don't tell me that those people are criminally responsible like somebody who chooses to do something like that," he said.
    "I don't think you can really take the position and say that person deserves to be punished when he was himself damaged."
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Because you don't bold it doesn't mean it's not there.

    "Don't tell me that those people are criminally responsible like somebody who chooses to do something like that," he said.
    Which seems to be that in the line of conversation the Priest was talking about it in relation to others peforming pedophliac actions that weren't victims of molestation themselves in the past. The statement regarding deserving to be punished could be an across the board thing, or it could be something said within the context of relating it to the punishment of those who were not previously victims themeslves. Again, you're making an assumption that the entire statement, and the thoughts behind those statements, are meant in a literalistic way and are presented as "in context" by the arthur. Given the line the writer uses just before the one you quoted, I can clearly see a way someone could make that statement in a way that's not suggesting that the action shouldn't have a "punishment" of sorts but dissimilar to others of a different situation and that there is a differing level of "deserving" it.

    I'd be interested to see the Priests actual words rather than the snippets taken by the Telegraph. It reads to me as similar to how I've seen some people talk about Insanity pleas in the United States, that the person isn't being "punished" by being put into a mental institution but are being given treatment and aid....even though, yeah, it's definitely still "punishment".

    If the man honestly believes nothing should be done, then he's absolutely wrong. But I think the general notion leading up to that conclussion is not a poor one.

    Also, I think the constant drumbeat of "catholic cover up" is one given by people who seek to find news that suits their agenda and have no desire what so ever to be objective (not saying you're doing this). Even if we take this as entirely face value, it's a singular catholic priest. On the flip side you have another catholic priest, Arch Bishop Stephen Brislin, stating:

    “However, the Southern African Catholic Bishops’ Conference is well aware of the devastation caused by sexual and other abuse of minors, both for the victims and their families, and condemns all abuse unreservedly.

    “For centuries, there has been a veil of silence in the world surrounding child abuse and it is only in recent years that the *matter is receiving the attention it deserves.

    “Unfortunately, there have also been failures on the part of the church.”

    According to Brislin, paedophilia was “de facto a criminal offence”.

    He said: “We will comply with the legal requirements when such cases come to our attention.

    “Perpetrators must take responsibility for their actions.”

    Link
    And as you noted the conversation on Meet the Press. Yet those don't get linked by many of those who immedietely jump on this as some grand example of "Catholics" or "Catholic Leadership" trying to "excuse" or "cover it up". If the guy's meaning is literally what the Telegraph is attempting to paint it as, then he should be called out. HE should be called out. But not surprisingly, it rarely is the individual being called out but the faith as a whole or the clergy as a whole regardless of what the majority of others are actually stating. We see people leaping forward to go "Hey, Not all Democrats....!" and "hey, not all Republicans...!" when a singular individual does or says something stupid, and yet it quickly is "Catholic Leadership" in these situations.

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Because you don't bold it doesn't mean it's not there.



    Which seems to be that in the line of conversation the Priest was talking about it in relation to others peforming pedophliac actions that weren't victims of molestation themselves in the past. The statement regarding deserving to be punished could be an across the board thing, or it could be something said within the context of relating it to the punishment of those who were not previously victims themeslves. Again, you're making an assumption that the entire statement, and the thoughts behind those statements, are meant in a literalistic way and are presented as "in context" by the arthur. Given the line the writer uses just before the one you quoted, I can clearly see a way someone could make that statement in a way that's not suggesting that the action shouldn't have a "punishment" of sorts but dissimilar to others of a different situation and that there is a differing level of "deserving" it.

    I'd be interested to see the Priests actual words rather than the snippets taken by the Telegraph. It reads to me as similar to how I've seen some people talk about Insanity pleas in the United States, that the person isn't being "punished" by being put into a mental institution but are being given treatment and aid....even though, yeah, it's definitely still "punishment".
    I included it in the quote, I am certainly not trying to suggest it is not there. However, he did specifically and clearly state that they should not be punished.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The point to remember here is that the church has improved, and I do not know of any evidence that they are currently covering it up.

    Has it though? I mean, just because we aren't hearing anything, doesn't mean that they just haven't gotten better at covering it up. Also, with the comments of the current Pope, I don't know if they really have fixed the problem. Remember, that the church STILL holds the power to move around or even recall these preiest back to where they are protected. When the church officially changes their stance to where they agree to hand over any priest for investigation then maybe I'll reconsider.

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I included it in the quote, I am certainly not trying to suggest it is not there. However, he did specifically and clearly state that they should not be punished.
    And given the context of the statement prior comparing the two, and the entire point he's making, along with lacking the entire transcript I can quite easily see that not being a clear statement of no punishment what so ever. For example, something that muddies it is that earlier he says that you try to "put right" those with disorders, suggesting medical treatment, which would seemingly be forced. That sounds much like what happens with those who are found not guilty be criminal insanity here in the U.S. They're not "punished" in the traditional sense, but it still is defacto a "punishment" as they are confined to medical facilities until such a time that their condition can be "put right". As I said, we're taking snippets of words from a story that was from a short interview and making assumptions regarding intent, meaning, and what other things were stated in context.

    I liked your post because you provided a quote regarding your commend, and with it I clearly see where you come to your view on it. However, I simply disagree in terms of how "Clear" it is that he thinks nothing should be done in such a situation. As I said, if he truly believes nothing should be done I strongly disagree with him, and personally even if he just felt forced treatment was necessary I'd still disagree on that. But I don't disagree with him on the general notion that an individual who themselves was victimized that goes on to victimize others is one I'd look at with a slightly different view than those who simply victimize others. There's a level of sympathy and empathy that would not be present otherwise...a level that doesn't make me wish to see them not be punished, but one that recognizes that said punishment is likely just one on a long line of horrors that the person has been subjected to.

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    Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Maybe you should read your Bible:

    from what is thought to be the earliest known canonical text: The Epistle to the Galatians



    One 'problem' for True Believers: Just which parts of your Holy Text are you supposed to believe?


    and, why should any rational human expect "black or white" answers to complex questions?
    Are you an atheist? Just curious. Not every denomination is the same, but for what it is worth:

    The laws of the Old Testament were earthly laws. They were to govern our existence and give us a path to repent for our sins according to the old covenant. A covenant is a contract. When Jesus died on the cross he suffered for all our sins. He filled the contract. He then created a new covenant. A new contract. It is between you and God. Me and God. Accept Jesus. Does the Old Testament not apply? No. It is valid. It has many wonderful teachings and lessons. Many though are customs.

    "Render unto Ceasar." It is morally right and just to follow the laws and customs of our culture. The question is can you rationalize them with your faith and your heart.

    You call it a problem to decide on which Old Testament "laws" are hard to follow for "True Believers." It isn't hard. It might be difficult for people who read literally or who read with closed minds.

    Ps

    This is my view. This is the way I understand it. It is the way I see the PC USA doctrine. It is the way I have explained to youth. I am no great scholarly Christian. I am a sinner. I have made mistakes and I am at a point of what one might call a faith crisis right now. I still believe and I always will. I just feel distant from God. That is ok. Others need him more than I right now. So take what I say with whatever grain and salt flavor you like. It is what gets me through.
    Last edited by blackjack50; 03-18-13 at 12:30 PM.
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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You cannot imagine an action somewhere between banning religion and doing nothing? Really?
    It's called "binary thinking", and the rightwing is immersed in it
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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