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Thread: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

  1. #61
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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    Yeah, pedophilia isn't a crime, but child molestation is. I figure some people become pedophiles as a result of life experiences, such as being molested themselves at a young age, and some people may even be born "wired" that way.

    Frankly, I feel sorry for pedophiles. I can't imagine what kind of hell it must be to live with those kind of urges. Don't get me wrong, the moment they act on those urges they lose my sympathy.

    Medical help should be free and readily available to pedophiles who seek assistance in controlling their urges. And we shouldn't judge people who actually take the proactive measures to seek treatment.

    But once you have shown you are willing to molest children you MUST be removed from society.
    No such luck in treating paedophiles yet. They respond poorly to therapy.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanWoman76 View Post
    no, you are using the actual medical definition for diagnosis of pedophilia AS A MENTAL DISORDER. The actual definition of mental disorder is abnormal psychology that causes a person to be a danger to themselves or others. That is known as going to the proper source for information and then USING THAT SOURCE INCORRECTLY. You are basing your incorrect definition of pedophilia as always being a danger to oneself and others, on incorrectly defining pedophilia as synonymous to, , pedophilia AS A MENTAL DISORDER, which is CIRCULAR LOGIC. You are compounding your suckish research skills and your circular logic, By telling me that I'm Incorrectly defining pedophilia as abnormal psychology by actually using the actual medical professionals' definition of pedophilia as abnormal psychology. That is known as going to the proper source for information, you are just calling it incorrect use.
    Pedophilia is a mental disorder. It takes acting on the urges also in order to make one a pedophile. Not acting on them makes one closeted and/or sick dreamer.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Really? you think ANY of the first Ten Amendments can be banned?

    I don't expect much black or white from a socialist sympathizer thief tho.

    Maybe you should read your Bible:

    from what is thought to be the earliest known canonical text: The Epistle to the Galatians
    The Purpose of the Law

    19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring would come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained through angels by a mediator.
    20 Now a mediator involves more than one party; but God is one.
    21 Is the law then opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could make alive, then righteousness would indeed come through the law. 22 But the scripture has imprisoned all things under the power of sin, so that what was promised through faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
    23 Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed.
    24 Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be justified by faith.
    25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian,
    26 for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith.

    One 'problem' for True Believers: Just which parts of your Holy Text are you supposed to believe?


    and, why should any rational human expect "black or white" answers to complex questions?
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    What the **** does this have to do with either atheists or homosexuals?

    Are many pedophiles molested as children themselves? Seems unlikely but I really don't k ow for sure.
    I'm not sure, but my memory seems to remember hearing routinely from both medical sources and more anecdotal (Dr. Drew for example) that those who have been abused or exposed to abuse are more likely TO abuse. This is in a general sense...from physical abuse to pedophilia.

    Honestly, if you removed this being from a Cardinal and told me it was from someone like a Dr. Drew I wouldn't have blinked an eye. I know it's the whole "Catholic says something about Pedophilia! Kill it with Fire", but trying to look at this even mildly objectively, I can somewhat see his point. He's not suggesting the act of pedophilia is inherently not criminal. But he's suggesting a thought that there's a different in terms of the criminal aspect, seemingly in terms of motivation and intent, between those who seemingly just choose to do the action as opposed to those who have been abused in the past and then choose to do it.....

    I guess putting it another way as an analogy...

    A person who uses crack the first time because "hey that'd be fun" an a person whose been using it for years and wants to stop but keeps doing it because they're addicted could be viewed as different in how people view the criminality or culpability of the act, because one's doing it fully by choice and the other is affected by something akin to an illness. Doesn't make the act "Good" or "okay" or "acceptable", but PERHAPS shines a different light upon the motivation for the act.

    I think Middleground says it well a little ways back in terms of his meaning. It doesn't make it okay in any way, or something that shouldn't be dealt with, but it's arguable that perhaps there's a different degree of responsability.

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    When those in charge have covered up crimes time and time again, when those in charge refuse to accept that actions of some of their members are criminal - what should governments do?




    Denying reality is not the way for the Church to move forward.
    Oh goody, another chance to bash the Catholic church...
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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I'm not sure, but my memory seems to remember hearing routinely from both medical sources and more anecdotal (Dr. Drew for example) that those who have been abused or exposed to abuse are more likely TO abuse. This is in a general sense...from physical abuse to pedophilia.

    Honestly, if you removed this being from a Cardinal and told me it was from someone like a Dr. Drew I wouldn't have blinked an eye. I know it's the whole "Catholic says something about Pedophilia! Kill it with Fire", but trying to look at this even mildly objectively, I can somewhat see his point. He's not suggesting the act of pedophilia is inherently not criminal. But he's suggesting a thought that there's a different in terms of the criminal aspect, seemingly in terms of motivation and intent, between those who seemingly just choose to do the action as opposed to those who have been abused in the past and then choose to do it.....

    I guess putting it another way as an analogy...

    A person who uses crack the first time because "hey that'd be fun" an a person whose been using it for years and wants to stop but keeps doing it because they're addicted could be viewed as different in how people view the criminality or culpability of the act, because one's doing it fully by choice and the other is affected by something akin to an illness. Doesn't make the act "Good" or "okay" or "acceptable", but PERHAPS shines a different light upon the motivation for the act.

    I think Middleground says it well a little ways back in terms of his meaning. It doesn't make it okay in any way, or something that shouldn't be dealt with, but it's arguable that perhaps there's a different degree of responsability.
    The issue to me is not that it is the catholic church(The Cardinal from Chicago was on Meet The Press yesterday and made alot of sense on the subject and presented what the church is doing in a very good light), but that what was said by this cardinal tends to forget why pedophilia is a crime, which is the victim. Why they do what they do is secondary.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh goody, another chance to bash the Catholic church...
    So you think the Catholic church should get a pass on the subject of child molestation? How would you suggest it be addressed so as to not offend your tender sensibilities?
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    The issue to me is not that it is the catholic church(The Cardinal from Chicago was on Meet The Press yesterday and made alot of sense on the subject and presented what the church is doing in a very good light), but that what was said by this cardinal tends to forget why pedophilia is a crime, which is the victim. Why they do what they do is secondary.
    Absolutely. However, in the type of situation the Cardinal is talking about you're looking at two victims...the first and now the second. It doesn't excuse the actions of the person performing the current abuse, it doesn't make those actions "okay", it doesn't make them something that should be ignored...but I guess I'm saying that I understand the notion of looking to not just punish, but perhaps also provide help, to those who were abused and then go forward with abuse.

    It's not just paedophilia. If a girl grows up watching her father abuse her mother and abuse her verbally and physically (But not sexually), if that girl grows up to be abusive to her children and her husband then I have at least some sympathy for her because I realize part of why she's doing that is because she TOO was a Victim. It doesn't excuse the action she's taking against her own family, but it does interject a slightly different spin to the situation and in terms of what actions may be most needed to bring it to a resolution.

    This is one of those threads I kind of wish CC was around for. I'll try to look up some information...but I'm almost positive that amongst victims of abuse, regardless of the kind, the potential for those people to go on and be abusers themselves increases SIGNIFICANTLY.

    That's not excusing their action, it's not saying their action shouldn't have consequences, but it's saying that there is perhaps a different level of intent surrounding the inspiration to take the action and perhaps a different set of issues to deal with in terms of punishment.

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Absolutely. However, in the type of situation the Cardinal is talking about you're looking at two victims...the first and now the second. It doesn't excuse the actions of the person performing the current abuse, it doesn't make those actions "okay", it doesn't make them something that should be ignored...but I guess I'm saying that I understand the notion of looking to not just punish, but perhaps also provide help, to those who were abused and then go forward with abuse.

    It's not just paedophilia. If a girl grows up watching her father abuse her mother and abuse her verbally and physically (But not sexually), if that girl grows up to be abusive to her children and her husband then I have at least some sympathy for her because I realize part of why she's doing that is because she TOO was a Victim. It doesn't excuse the action she's taking against her own family, but it does interject a slightly different spin to the situation and in terms of what actions may be most needed to bring it to a resolution.

    This is one of those threads I kind of wish CC was around for. I'll try to look up some information...but I'm almost positive that amongst victims of abuse, regardless of the kind, the potential for those people to go on and be abusers themselves increases SIGNIFICANTLY.

    That's not excusing their action, it's not saying their action shouldn't have consequences, but it's saying that there is perhaps a different level of intent surrounding the inspiration to take the action and perhaps a different set of issues to deal with in terms of punishment.
    But the problem here is basically the power of the message kinda thing. When you have a major controversy in your organization, thinking better about what you say is important. I again contrast it to what was said on Meet The Press yesterday, where he opened by condemning child molestation, then explained how the church had changed it's rules to make stopping it easier and better, then talked about how what happens now is that cases are reported, that happened before the changes the church made, which keep people thinking the church was not fixing the problem. It's a major difference in tone between those comments and the ones reported here. Saying that some child molesters should not be punished, and making excuses, when your organization has a very unpleasant history on the topic, is the exact wrong thing to do.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    Re: Cardinal says paedophilia 'not a criminal condition'

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    But the problem here is basically the power of the message kinda thing. When you have a major controversy in your organization, thinking better about what you say is important. I again contrast it to what was said on Meet The Press yesterday, where he opened by condemning child molestation, then explained how the church had changed it's rules to make stopping it easier and better, then talked about how what happens now is that cases are reported, that happened before the changes the church made, which keep people thinking the church was not fixing the problem. It's a major difference in tone between those comments and the ones reported here. Saying that some child molesters should not be punished, and making excuses, when your organization has a very unpleasant history on the topic, is the exact wrong thing to do.

    It has now become more a matter of the coverup than the crime(s), for the coverup shows that for too many in the hierarchy and far too often, denying the crime was more important than stopping the predators.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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