Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

MMC said:

LEMONT, Ill. — President Barack Obama is pushing Congress to authorize $200 million a year for research into clean energy technologies that can wean automobiles off oil.

Obama proposed the idea of an energy security trust last month in his State of the Union address, but he was putting a price tag on the idea during a trip Friday to the Argonne National Laboratory outside Chicago — $2 billion over 10 years. The White House said the research would be paid for with revenue from federal oil and gas leases on offshore drilling and would not add to the deficit.

The money would fund research on "breakthrough" technologies such as batteries for electric cars and biofuels made from switch grass or other materials. Researchers also would look to improve use of natural gas as a fuel for cars and trucks.

White House officials said the president's proposal would not require expansion of drilling to federal lands or water where it is now prohibited. Instead, they are counting on increased production from existing sites, along with efficiencies from an administration plan to streamline drilling permits. The government collects more than $6 billion a year in royalties from production on federal lands and waters.

Obama's push for the energy trust came as the Environmental Protection Agency released a new report Friday indicating that fuel economy standards rose last year by 1.4 miles per gallon — the largest annual increase since EPA started keeping track. The agency said the improvement was due to better availability of high-performing cars and more options for consumers.

The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers suggested that rather than encouraging research on fuel-efficient cars, the government should focus on making diverse fuels more available and improving transportation infrastructure.

Argonne is one of the Energy Department's largest national laboratories for scientific and engineering research, staffed by more than 1,250 scientists and engineers. White House officials said it was chosen as the site of the president's speech because of its tradition of research into vehicle technologies.....snip~

Obama wants research to wean vehicles off oil - Americas - Stripes
By MATTHEW DALY and NEDRA PICKLER The Associated Press <<<<<More here!

We did hear Obama say about taking care of infrastructure. So why isn't he listening to the Alliance of Auto Manufacturers on that point. I don't have a problem with Government State, local, and Fed, moving their Vehicles to natural gas. Anybody else? Thoughts?

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Since the dawn of time, or at least beginning with the Nixon administration, every president has been telling us that he wants to wean us off oil.

So is Obama being sincere? Here is a bit of wisdom - People are not judged by what they say. They are judged by what they do.

cannuck said:

Railroad locomotives and the odd ship are NOT "hybrids". The appropriate name was bestowed upon them by the inventor of the drive system (Dr Ferdinand Porsche somewhere around 110 years ago) as MIXED drive (or to be precise, diesel/electric). Hybridization implies some kind of energy recovery or multiple energy source, whereas mixed drive has but one sole source of energy, and two or more stages of application of drive. BTW: the most efficient of ships are direct drive diesels. Nothing else comes anywhere near their level of efficiency. EVERY newly constructed large tanker or container ship is so powered.

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The benefit that we will see in Hybrids will be from series hybrids, where the IC side of things just generates electricity,
and the electric motors power the wheels/recover breaking energy.
Trains don't recover the breaking energy, but exhaust the heat of breaking through resistors.
By loosing the transmission, and carrying our energy in liquid hydrocarbon form we could achieve
the highest possible efficiencies from a heat engine hybrid.
most diesel engines have a sweet spot in speed.
By running the the engine at one optimized speed, and having enough short term battery capacity,
in theory a vehicle could achieve better efficiencies than any single technology.
So far the attempts have fallen a little short.

danarhea said:

Since the dawn of time, or at least beginning with the Nixon administration, every president has been telling us that he wants to wean us off oil.

So is Obama being sincere? Here is a bit of wisdom - People are not judged by what they say. They are judged by what they do.

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Indeed:

"Following the direction set by President Obama on May 21, 2010, NHTSA and EPA have issued joint Final Rules for Corporate Average Fuel Economy and Greenhouse Gas emissions regulations for model years 2017 and beyond, that will help address our country's dependence on imported oil, save consumers money at the pump, and reduce emissions of greenhouse gases that contribute to global climate change."

"Benefits and Costs of the New CAFE Standards

Compared to the MY 2016 CAFE standards finalized in 2010, NHTSA estimates that the final and augural standards announced today will save approximately 4 billion barrels of oil and 1.8 billion metric tons of CO2 emissions4 over the lifetimes of MY 2017-2025 vehicles. NHTSA estimates that fuel savings will far outweigh higher vehicle costs, and that the final and augural CAFE standards announced today will, compared to continuation of standards already in place for MY 2016, yield $372-$507 billion in net benefits to society over the lifetimes of vehicles sold through model year 2025.5

Benefits to Consumers

Compared to standards already in place through MY 2016, the CAFE standards presented today will yield significant savings for consumers at the pump. Higher costs for new vehicle technology could add, on average, $1,250-$1,400 to the average cost to purchase a new vehicle in MY 2025.6 Those consumers who drive their MY 2025 vehicle for its entire lifetime will save, on average, about $4,400 (based on a 7 percent discount rate).7 This means that, for those consumers who purchase their new MY 2025 vehicle with cash, the discounted fuel savings will offset the higher vehicle cost in less than 3 years, and fuel savings will continue for as long as the consumer owns the vehicle. Those consumers who buy a new vehicle with a typical 5-year loan will benefit from an average monthly cash flow savings of about $14 during the loan period, or about $170 per year, on average, as the monthly fuel savings more than offsets the higher monthly payment due to the higher incremental vehicle cost.

Fuel Economy | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)

Smeagol said:

Please show me the quotes from the 1980s and earlier that say electric cars will be on the market and less expensive than traditional cars in short order and if you do I'll show you a couple. One that shows electric cars would be further advanced if the oil industry hadn't used its considerable resources to buy up one significant battery advancement and refused to lets anyone use it. The second saying a new battery that will recharge in minutes and will give electric cars 10 times the range of current technology electric cars (1,000 miles based on the Nissan Leaf) will be on the market in several years.

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If these are supposed to be replacements for current-day technology, they have to be, at best, as good as current-day technology. However, everything we have seen so far has been far inferior to current-day technology by virtually every metric. People have been claiming for decades that it's just around the corner. Forgive me if I don't buy your claims that it's just around the corner. Let me know when it's actually on the market, available to but and it demonstrably works in the real world. That's the only time I'm going to buy the claims.

apdst said:

That's the market working like the market works. However, what's being proposed is a regulatory solution created by the government.

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I think sometimes government has a role to play in advancing some areas of commerce especially in the face of a national security crisis where oil's monopoly on personal transportation has caused real, grave and multi-facited security dangers with diminishing global oil reserves which only is likely to cause greater security concerns. NASA is a good example of how government's need to address national security concerns created huge opportunities for commerce. The interstate highway system is another area where government action affected commerce. And there were 100% government funded project, not just a $7500 rebate to help offset the cost until the pump is primed.

Cephus said:

If these are supposed to be replacements for current-day technology, they have to be, at best, as good as current-day technology. However, everything we have seen so far has been far inferior to current-day technology by virtually every metric. People have been claiming for decades that it's just around the corner. Forgive me if I don't buy your claims that it's just around the corner. Let me know when it's actually on the market, available to but and it demonstrably works in the real world. That's the only time I'm going to buy the claims.

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Here you go:



5+2 available seating
0 emissions
0-60 mph in 4.4 secs
up to 265 mi. (EPA Certified Range)

Model S | Tesla Motors

Catawba said:

H
5+2 available seating
0 emissions
0-60 mph in 4.4 secs
up to 265 mi. (EPA Certified Range)
Model S | Tesla Motors

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What were the emissions during production?

Bjorn Lomborg: Green Cars Have a Dirty Little Secret - WSJ.com

If a typical electric car is driven 50,000 miles over its lifetime, the huge initial emissions from its manufacture means the car will actually have put more carbon-dioxide in the atmosphere than a similar-size gasoline-powered car driven the same number of miles. Similarly, if the energy used to recharge the electric car comes mostly from coal-fired power plants, it will be responsible for the emission of almost 15 ounces of carbon-dioxide for every one of the 50,000 miles it is driven—three ounces more than a similar gas-powered car.

Even if the electric car is driven for 90,000 miles and the owner stays away from coal-powered electricity, the car will cause just 24% less carbon-dioxide emission than its gas-powered cousin. This is a far cry from "zero emissions." Over its entire lifetime, the electric car will be responsible for 8.7 tons of carbon dioxide less than the average conventional car.

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Catawba said:

Here you go:

5+2 available seating
0 emissions
0-60 mph in 4.4 secs
up to 265 mi. (EPA Certified Range)

Model S | Tesla Motors

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Takes more than 8 hours to recharge the batteries unless you've got a 220V source, the batteries are absurdly expensive and polluting to make. The only model of the S that does what you claim costs between 72-$87k.

Come on back when you have batteries you can charge in 5 minutes and doesn't cost 2 arms and 2 legs.

Catawba said:

Indeed:

"Benefits and Costs of the New CAFE Standards

Benefits to Consumers

Compared to standards already in place through MY 2016, the CAFE standards presented today will yield significant savings for consumers at the pump. Higher costs for new vehicle technology could add, on average, $1,250-$1,400 to the average cost to purchase a new vehicle in MY 2025.6 Those consumers who drive their MY 2025 vehicle for its entire lifetime will save, on average, about $4,400 (based on a 7 percent discount rate).7 This means that, for those consumers who purchase their new MY 2025 vehicle with cash, the discounted fuel savings will offset the higher vehicle cost in less than 3 years, and fuel savings will continue for as long as the consumer owns the vehicle. Those consumers who buy a new vehicle with a typical 5-year loan will benefit from an average monthly cash flow savings of about $14 during the loan period, or about $170 per year, on average, as the monthly fuel savings more than offsets the higher monthly payment due to the higher incremental vehicle cost.

Fuel Economy | National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA)

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Wouldn't it be better, and we save more, if they got the cost of the efficient cars below the regular cars.
Why must the more efficient cars cost more?
This may sound like a silly question, but the market price is set by what people are willing to pay.
If people are willing to pay more so their friends will see they drive a Prius, the selling company
will oblige and keep the price high.

Samhain said:

What were the emissions during production?

Bjorn Lomborg: Green Cars Have a Dirty Little Secret - WSJ.com

If a typical electric car is driven 50,000 miles over its lifetime, the huge initial emissions from its manufacture means the car will actually have put more carbon-dioxide in the atmosphere than a similar-size gasoline-powered car driven the same number of miles. Similarly, if the energy used to recharge the electric car comes mostly from coal-fired power plants, it will be responsible for the emission of almost 15 ounces of carbon-dioxide for every one of the 50,000 miles it is driven—three ounces more than a similar gas-powered car.

Even if the electric car is driven for 90,000 miles and the owner stays away from coal-powered electricity, the car will cause just 24% less carbon-dioxide emission than its gas-powered cousin. This is a far cry from "zero emissions." Over its entire lifetime, the electric car will be responsible for 8.7 tons of carbon dioxide less than the average conventional car.

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The emissions problem with battery production is one of the reasons more research is needed. The rest of your info is out of date:

"If you want to go green, driving on electricity is a clear winner. Using today’s average American electricity mix of natural gas, coal, nuclear, hydro, wind, geothermal, and solar, an electric car emits half the amount of climate-changing carbon pollution per mile as the average new vehicle. In states with cleaner mixes, such as California, it’s only a quarter as much. To find out how clean your electric car would be today, plug your zip code into the EPA’s “Beyond Tailpipe Emissions Calculator.” You should also know that, because old coal plants are increasingly being retired and replaced by cleaner and renewable resources, plug-in cars are the only cars that become cleaner as they age."

Good And Green Reasons To Buy An Electric Car This Year | ThinkProgress

Myth 1: Switching to an electric vehicle will just mean that the same amount of pollution comes from the electricity generation rather than from the tailpipe — I'll just be switching from oil to coal.
Reality: According to a range of studies, an electric car leads to 35 to 60% less carbon dioxide pollution from electricity than the CO2 pollution from the oil of a conventional car with an internal combustion engine.[1][2][3] In some areas, like many on the West Coast that rely largely on wind or hydro power, the emissions are significantly lower for EVs. And that's today. As we retire more coal plants and bring cleaner sources of power online, the emissions from electric vehicle charging drop even further. Additionally, in some areas, night-time charging will increase the opportunity to take advantage of wind power -- another way to reduce emissions.

A caveat to consider, according to some studies, is that when coal plants supply the majority of the power mix in a given area, electric vehicles may emit more CO2 and SO2 pollution than hybrid electric vehicles.[4] Learn where your electricity comes from, what plans your state or community has for shifting to renewables, and whether you have options for switching to greener power."

"Myth 3: Electric car batteries pose a recycling problem.
Reality: Internal combustion engine vehicles use lead-acid batteries, and their recycle rate is about 98% in the US. The newer batteries for electric vehicles, such as those made of lithium-ion, include even more valuable and recyclable metals and will have a life well beyond the vehicle. In fact, a Belgian company plans to use Tesla Motor's electric vehicle battery pack material to produce an alloy it can further refine into cobalt, nickel, and other valuable metals as well as special grades of concrete. Technology will soon allow for EV batteries to store energy produced by solar or wind power."

"Myth 9: Charging an EV on solar power is a futuristic dream.
Reality: The technology to power your EV with solar power is already available. The investment in solar panels pays off faster when the solar power is not only replacing grid electricity, but replacing much more expensive gasoline. According to Plug In America, EVs typically travel three to four miles (or more) per kWh (kilowatt hour) of electricity. If you drive 12,000 miles per year, you will need 3,000-4,000 kWh. Depending on where you live, you will need a 1.5kW-3kW photovoltaic (PV) system to generate that much power for your vehicle using about 150 to 300 square feet of space on the roof of your home. According to SolarChargedDriving.org, for both vehicle and other home electricity needs, you will need about 7-10 kW of solar power in total on your roof. If your solar system is already in place but does not have enough panels for both home and vehicle charging needs, you may be able to buy a converter that can handle another "string;" micro inverter systems may be particularly good for this. Utility credits for the daytime solar power can offset the cost of charging the car at night. If solar PV isn't feasible at your home, find out if your utility offers a green energy option.

Myth vs. Reality - Electric Vehicles - Sierra Club

Catawba said:

Exactly, and research is what is proposed. From the OP - "The money would fund research on "breakthrough" technologies such as batteries for electric cars and biofuels made from switch grass or other materials. Researchers also would look to improve use of natural gas as a fuel for cars and trucks."

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And each of those have already been developed and funded, the funding paid for - 40 years ago! Maybe you have a case with battery tech, but the private sector is already fully funding it's own efforts there and the government shouldn't be competing with that.

What is your deal with wanting to accept paying for things twice?

And swithchgrass? There's a reason it didn't pan out the first time, we're on to algae and baterium now. Swithchgrass is a dead avenue.

Cephus said:

Come on back when you have batteries you can charge in 5 minutes and doesn't cost 2 arms and 2 legs.

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That's why we need more research on batteries. And most people don't need a 265 mi range since most don't travel more than 29 miles a day. There are affordable electric cars now that meet that requirement.

clownboy said:

And each of those have already been developed and funded, the funding paid for - 40 years ago! Maybe you have a case with battery tech, but the private sector is already fully funding it's own efforts there and the government shouldn't be competing with that.

What is your deal with wanting to accept paying for things twice?

And swithchgrass? There's a reason it didn't pan out the first time, we're on to algae and baterium now. Swithchgrass is a dead avenue.

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Never met anyone that thought whatever we have developed up to this point is good enough to use for all time.

Catawba said:

Using today’s average American electricity mix of natural gas, coal, nuclear, hydro, wind, geothermal, and solar, an electric car emits half the amount of climate-changing carbon pollution per mile as the average new vehicle.

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Lets suppose that's true. Now, let's compare that to an internal combustion engine running already developed, funded and ready to use bio-diesel. Here's the factsheet for biodiesel. Looks like, if you care so much about CO2 you should be suggesting we all drive diesel internal combustion engine vehicles running B80. Plus we save all the transition costs (going to electric vehicles) that will persist for decades.

Catawba said:

Never met anyone that thought whatever we have developed up to this point is good enough to use for all time.

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You still haven't, nor have you grasped the point.

Man theres going to be a lot of seized engines without oil in them..

clownboy said:

Lets suppose that's true. Now, let's compare that to an internal combustion engine running already developed, funded and ready to use bio-diesel. Here's the factsheet for biodiesel. Looks like, if you care so much about CO2 you should be suggesting we all drive diesel internal combustion engine vehicles running B80. Plus we save all the transition costs (going to electric vehicles) that will persist for decades.

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I think Biodiesel is a great transition from burning gas to a zero emissions electric vehicle, as long as we are not using food crops for the bio component.

clownboy said:

You still haven't, nor have you grasped the point.

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The point, as you've explained it up to this point, is nutty. Perhaps if you rephrase, it will make some kind of sense.

Catawba said:

That's why we need more research on batteries. And most people don't need a 265 mi range since most don't travel more than 29 miles a day. There are affordable electric cars now that meet that requirement.

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That's just a lot of BS. The electric vehicle industry wants people to take less than they currently have and pay more for it.

Screw them.

FreedomFromAll said:

Man theres going to be a lot of seized engines without oil in them..

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As an FYI, like your blender, ceiling fan and electric toothbrush, electric cars don't operate on metal against metal friction that requires motor oil.

As there is no transmission, many of the fluids you are used, such as transmission fluid and motor oil are eliminated.

2011 Nissan LEAF Performance and Handling

Reportedly, they also last way longer than gasoline cars are are predicted to rust out before they wear out as a sealed electric drive system is used instead of an internal combustion engine that requires regular "routine" maintenance just to keep it going that accounts for about half of the profits on gasoline cars by some estimates and pretty much guarantees to get you back n the show room for a new one every 3 to 5 years.

The Surprising Ways Car Dealers Make The Most Money Off You - Forbes

Catawba said:

Ok, that's one out of 3, and only just recently. The US and Mexico still import more crude oil than they export. The US imports way more than we produce.

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I do my research. Notice both Canada and MX are net EXPORTERS.

Cephus said:

That's just a lot of BS. The electric vehicle industry wants people to take less than they currently have and pay more for it.

Screw them.

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No one is forcing you to stop sacrificing at the gas pump if that's what you wish to continue. Personally, we have saved a lot from the switch to hybrid cars in 2000, and will save even more with our next car purchase, an electric car. Screw the oil companies!

jonny5 said:

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I do my research. Notice both Canada and MX are net EXPORTERS.

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Mexico exports in 1 year just a little more than we consume in 1 day! Big whoop!

Catawba said:

No one is forcing you to stop sacrificing at the gas pump if that's what you wish to continue. Personally, we have saved a lot from the switch to hybrid cars in 2000, and will save even more with our next car purchase, an electric car. Screw the oil companies!

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Screw'em, huh? What about the 300+ pounds of plastic that go into making your car? You better make the dealer replace the plastic with wood and metal. Oh, wait...then you would be a slave to the steel industry and too many trees would get cut down.

apdst said:

Screw'em, huh? What about the 300+ pounds of plastic that go into making your car? You better make the dealer replace the plastic with wood and metal. Oh, wait...then you would be a slave to the steel industry and too many trees would get cut down.

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45% of the oil consumed in the US is for gasoline. 4.6% of the oil consumed in the US is for plastics. You do the math!