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Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

What? Do you know what we're talking about here? I can name at least one fuel replacement that has been inexpensive and freely available for at least the last 40 years - propane. Heck, Henry Ford's vehicles originally ran on peanut oil. We've known since the beginning that vehicles could run on SVO/WVO. All this has been thoroughly researched. Why do you want to pay to do it all again?
One of my fields of endeavor have given me a perfect example of the difference between government trying to stick its nose into business where it doesn't belong (austensibly to "research" much of the time), and when it stays the hell out of our way and just lets us get on with things.

Most of you know about Chuck Yeager being the first to break the sound barrier (although it could be that a certain private contractor pilot did so before him - in the same airplane) because we poured millions of dollars into that research effort for defense purposes. But, how many of you know the whole story about the first people to fly around the world non-stop, un-refueled? That was a HOMEBUILT airplane the Dick Rutan and Jeanna Yeager flew that was designed by his brother, Burt and built by an army of volunteers. One of the most amazing technological achievements of the last century. A lot of the tech developed came from the private pursuit of aerodynamic efficiency - once the job of the NACA, but long since abandoned when the bureaucrats figured out how much money they could get by becoming NASA.

Speaking of which: you KNOW it cost a king's ransom for NASA to put a man into space, but remember that the same guy (Burt Rutan) designed and built an airplane that successfully flew into space to claim the CIVILIAN X prize for a measly few million bux - far less than the monthly coffee and lunch budget inside of the Beltway.

When government attempts to do applied research, they out of necessity build an incredibly expensive, six-humped camel. When left to market forces and individual initiative, the result becomes elegantly simple and effective engineering. The purpose of a government is to get it's leaders elected. The purpose of a government bureaucracy is to get its agenda funded. These things are exactly what government should NOT be allowed in any way to do.

Now, let's look at another related thing: auto emissions. Yes, there is no doubt that cars today are incredibly clean relative to pre-'72. BUT, how did we get to this fantastic place? Did government design these cars? NO! Government did their job and researched the problem and REGULATED what industry had to do. And INDUSTRY did most of the applied research to make it actually happen.

Simple: Government - legislate, regulate, enforce, defend, infrastructure, fundamental research.

Private: applied research, product development, production, consumption, market, play by the rules.

these two lines are all that you need as a formula for success.
 
How is the government researching alternative methods forcing anything on you? It is more likely that currently Oil is being forced on us now. If you are against something being forced onto you, then alternatives would make sense.

Petro fuels allow me to do what I want to do. If government regulates oil off the market, then there are things I won't be able to do because of it.
 
True, and it's up to the private market to improve it at this point.

It is not up to the private market. The private market, individuals, and yes even the government has the responsibility to take measures to protect our environment. Investing into technology to better the Earth is not a bad use of our tax money. Seriously, look at what we spend money on. Investing in the environment is probably one of the better things we invest in.
 
Exactly, and research is what is proposed. From the OP - "The money would fund research on "breakthrough" technologies such as batteries for electric cars and biofuels made from switch grass or other materials. Researchers also would look to improve use of natural gas as a fuel for cars and trucks."
All of which industry can and will do very effectively all on their own. What government with a BRAIN (now there's an oxyMORON) would do is research and plan how to build cities and communities in which you don't DRIVE the goddamn car in the first place.
 
Absolute friggin rubbish.

First of all, oil is produced from a LEASE, not a contract. Those leases must come from the rightful owner of the mineral resource being produced. ALL such leases require that the owner of the mineral rights be paid a royalty, as well as various taxes to Federal, state and municipal governments. When the oil or gas is located on BLM land, the people of the United States of America are the owners and you do indeed get paid royalties by ANYONE who produces. Same goes for state lands - paid to state and for fee leases, the private owner of the mineral rights must be paid. The system of land registration guarantees that the leaseholder MUST pay royalties directly to the lessor, as that is REQUIRED as the function of anyone purchasing the oil or gas.

Exxon-Mobil is hardly the only player. There are literally THOUSANDS of independent oil and gas producers here. No big secret, just log onto ANY state oil and gas commission website and search the leases.

I am really starting to doubt the public education system in the US. What the hell have they taught you about your own country?????????

My response had NOTHING to do with whether or not the oil company has to pay lease royalties, taxes, etc. My response had to do with the false notion that American gasoline consumers somehow get to replace Middle Eastern oil for domestically derived oil. Yeah, Exxon Mobil, British Petroleum, whoever will of course pay their lease obligations right after the sell it to the global market. There is no such thing as our own oil in terms of an ability to replace gasoline from dictators who either hate our guts or rule over people who hate our guts by using gas that originates in the US. All that happens is US petroleum is ADDED to the global market and we're competing with China on who is willing to pay the most for it to determine who the oil company will sell it to .
 
What is it you want to do that if an alternative were supplied you couldn't do?

Are there any electric cars that can pull a horse trailer? Or a 19 foot bass boat? Do they come in 4-wheel drive? Is there a place for my tool box?
 
All of which industry can and will do very effectively all on their own.

If that were the case we wouldn't still be driving cars powered by burning fossil fuels 42 years after we passed peak oil in this country.


What government with a BRAIN (now there's an oxyMORON) would do is research and plan how to build cities and communities in which you don't DRIVE the goddamn car in the first place.

There has been research into that and as result more mixed use communities are being designed that include a mixture of residential, commercial, and doctors to reduce the need for traveling by car for the things and care one needs.
 
Are there any electric cars that can pull a horse trailer? Or a 19 foot bass boat? Do they come in 4-wheel drive? Is there a place for my tool box?

With better electric battery's, then hybrids cars will become as tough and powerful as their gasoline driven cousins. As long as they keep researching the technology, future hybrids will improve.
 
Let us know when they are on the market and the vehicles cost no more to purchase or operate than gas-powered cars, have the same recharge rates as going to a gas station and have the same range as gas-powered cars. Oh, and the production of the batteries can't be any more polluting than gas-powered cars either. If they can't make it as good as what we already have, then it's hardly a substitute.

You won't need me to tell you and will happen pretty soon IMHO.

As you probably understand already, ALL new technology follows a predictable pattern of starting out expensive, prohibitively expensive for most people but BECAUSE its on the market, market forces like mass production, competition, etc., create conditions where in short order the prices drop like a brick while simultaneously the technology drastically improves. The PC, cell phone, calculator, HDTV, digital camera, Internet access, etc., etc., all followed that model as in the electric car. The odd dynamic here is there is a national security factor that makes getting behind electrically powered vehicles a greater priority and an significant portion of the population who have been talked into thinking bankrupting Middle Eastern terrorism, dictatorships and nuclear weapons proliferation is a loss for their political team to liberal environmentalists. Thank God they weren't around when 100% government funded NASA was putting a man on the moon or we'd never have electric power tools, ballpoint pens, satellite weather imagery, disposable diapers, Velcro, satellite delivered national talk radio or satellite delivered national cable TV news channels.
 
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If that were the case we wouldn't still be driving cars powered by burning fossil fuels 42 years after we passed peak oil in this country.
You need to read my previous posts on the subject more carefully. We are no where near Hubbert's peak. The shape of that curve changes dramatically when you change to price and the technologies brought to bear. We have produced MAYBE 20% of the recoverable oil (and that alone is nothing to be proud of - especially with the consumption curve we have to match it) if not a lot less.
There has been research into that and as result more mixed use communities are being designed that include a mixture of residential, commercial, and doctors to reduce the need for traveling by car for the things and care one needs.
Tiny drops in an OCEAN of bad urban planning.
 
You won't need me to tell you and will happen pretty soon IMHO.

They've been saying that for decades. I'm not impressed with the rhetoric, I want to see results.
 
Maybe not currently (I honestly don't know), thus the investment in advancing the technology.

Concept Hybrid trucks:

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Concept Trucks - Hybrid Trucks - Pictures of Concept Trucks - Pickup Truck Concepts


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Toyota Unveils FTX Full-Size Hybrid Pickup Concept at 2005 CIAS! - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums


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Mercedes unveils Econic NGT Hybrid truck concept
 
You need to read my previous posts on the subject more carefully. We are no where near Hubbert's peak. The shape of that curve changes dramatically when you change to price and the technologies brought to bear. We have produced MAYBE 20% of the recoverable oil (and that alone is nothing to be proud of - especially with the consumption curve we have to match it) if not a lot less.
Tiny drops in an OCEAN of bad urban planning.

I was referring to the point where consumption exceeds supply. That is what we passed in the US in 1971. There hasn't been a single year since when we have produced as much oil as we consume.
 
They've been saying that for decades. I'm not impressed with the rhetoric, I want to see results.


Please show me the quotes from the 1980s and earlier that say electric cars will be on the market and less expensive than traditional cars in short order and if you do I'll show you a couple. One that shows electric cars would be further advanced if the oil industry hadn't used its considerable resources to buy up one significant battery advancement and refused to lets anyone use it. The second saying a new battery that will recharge in minutes and will give electric cars 10 times the range of current technology electric cars (1,000 miles based on the Nissan Leaf) will be on the market in several years.
 
Try again!

If alternative energy provided short-term profitability, oil companies would be all over it by now. This a major motivation behind mothballing promising research.


You need to try again. You keep putting gas in your vehicle. If it's solar electric, you never buy gas again or pay the state and fed gas taxes again. If you have wind and solar at home, you don't send your Utility Corporation their monthly stipend, nor do you send your taxes to their partners, gov'ts. It's like an arcade game andif you don't put your quarter in repeatedly, you don't play. The Energy Corporations are the Arcade Game and Renewable kills their game. It ain't complicated. The Arcade Game has the power, and they want t keep it that way.
 
My response had NOTHING to do with whether or not the oil company has to pay lease royalties, taxes, etc. My response had to do with the false notion that American gasoline consumers somehow get to replace Middle Eastern oil for domestically derived oil. Yeah, Exxon Mobil, British Petroleum, whoever will of course pay their lease obligations right after the sell it to the global market. There is no such thing as our own oil in terms of an ability to replace gasoline from dictators who either hate our guts or rule over people who hate our guts by using gas that originates in the US. All that happens is US petroleum is ADDED to the global market and we're competing with China on who is willing to pay the most for it to determine who the oil company will sell it to .
Go back and find Cat's numbers for oil import/export. The US is a massive IMPORTER of crude oil. If any is sold FROM here (and precious little is) it is a matter of convenience, not necessity. American refiners aren't going to let any CHEAP domestic out of their grasp since they have to replace with far more expensive imports. Also, the US imports very little refined product - except from Canada (ooops, I didn't say that out loud, did I???)
 
Are there any electric cars that can pull a horse trailer? Or a 19 foot bass boat? Do they come in 4-wheel drive? Is there a place for my tool box?
As far as a battery electric, it will be a long time before the energy density of batteries
catches up to hydrocarbon fuels.
They could design a hybrid to do both of those things today.
Almost all modern ships and trains are hybrids.
A vehicle with 4 hub motors, could in theory tow just about anything, the low end torque
would be better than most IC engine/transmissions.
MTSU is working on a retrofit kit, the data in the second link says each hub motor can produce
200 ft-lbs of torque. If you had one of these on all four wheels,, 800 ft-lbs of torque.
I think big pickups are around 400 ft-lbs of torque.
http://www.mtsu.edu/research/docs/Wheel_Hub.pdf
Green Car Congress: MTSU group seeking to commercialize new wheel motor plug-in hybrid retrofit kit
 
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I was referring to the point where consumption exceeds supply. That is what we passed in the US in 1971. There hasn't been a single year since when we have produced as much oil as we consume.
We will get back to that in the not too distant future. With the metrics that are used today, North American production is forecast to peak at around 14 MM bbl/day around 2020, but again, based on things that were valid in the past, not the future. BTW: I have to refer to continental production rather than US only because our markets are so thoroughly integrated and the US owns most of the production up here anyhow.
 
Maybe not currently (I honestly don't know), thus the investment in advancing the technology.

Pour some money into, then. Again, what are you waiting on if it's such a nifty idea?
 
As far as a battery electric, it will be a long time before the energy density of batteries
catches up to hydrocarbon fuels.
They could design a hybrid to do both of those things today.
Almost all modern ships and trains are hybrids.
Railroad locomotives and the odd ship are NOT "hybrids". The appropriate name was bestowed upon them by the inventor of the drive system (Dr Ferdinand Porsche somewhere around 110 years ago) as MIXED drive (or to be precise, diesel/electric). Hybridization implies some kind of energy recovery or multiple energy source, whereas mixed drive has but one sole source of energy, and two or more stages of application of drive. BTW: the most efficient of ships are direct drive diesels. Nothing else comes anywhere near their level of efficiency. EVERY newly constructed large tanker or container ship is so powered.
 
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Are there any electric cars that can pull a horse trailer? Or a 19 foot bass boat? Do they come in 4-wheel drive? Is there a place for my tool box?

Not that I'm aware of but what needs to be understood is since the advent of the automobile because of the gasoline monopoly we've been conditioned to think of automotive technology as one way and one way only. Even after the electric car is in place with millions of cars on the roads, there will still be gasoline cars that some people will still want to use. The good thing is because of competition from electric cars, gasoline cars will get less expensive and the price of gas will be driven (free pun) down and all cars will get better as they compete for buyers. Compare it to the the telephone. At one time the Bell Telephone system was all there was. We paid for long distance calls by minute and by distance. Then the Bell system got competition at first from other long distance carriers and then local, then cell phone, then VIOP like Vonage and others. Today because of completion we have a host of *(fill-in-the-number) services; voice mail; unique phone numbers for each member of the family; all you can talk local, nationwide and international calling to select countries for one low flat rate; discounts for bundling other services like subscription TV, home security monitoring and Internet. Competition is a great thing and even if you don't personal like electric cars everybody should enthusiastically welcome them because gas will get cheaper and gas cars get better and less expensive. This on top of ridding ourselves of dictator control of the US economy through OPEC and the American funding of terrorism and nuclear proliferating in the hands of madmen.
 
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We will get back to that in the not too distant future. With the metrics that are used today, North American production is forecast to peak at around 14 MM bbl/day around 2020, but again, based on things that were valid in the past, not the future. BTW: I have to refer to continental production rather than US only because our markets are so thoroughly integrated and the US owns most of the production up here anyhow.

That's not likely since, except for the slowdown caused by the recession, demand has outpaced supply in the US. even with the offshore drilling and new shale oil and oil sands discoveries and techniques. Not to mention the need to lower CO2 emissions for environmental reasons.
 
Not that I'm aware of but what needs to be understood is since the advent of the automobile because of the gasoline monopoly we've been conditioned to think of automotive technology as one way and one way only. Even after the electric car is in place with millions of cars on the roads, there will still be gasoline cars that some people will still want to use. The good thing is because of competition from electric cars, gasoline cars will get less expensive and the price of gas will be driven (free pun) down and all cars will get better as they compete from buyers. Compare it to the the telephone. At one time the Bell Telephone system was all there was. We paid for long distance calls by minute and by distance. Then the Bell system got competition at first from other long distance carriers and then local, then cell phone, then VIOP like Vonage and others. Today because of completion we have a host of *(fill-in-the-number) services; voice mail; unique phone numbers for each member of the family; all you can talk local, nationwide and international calling to select countries for one low flat rate; discounts for bundling other services like subscription TV, home security monitoring and Internet. Competition is a great thing and even if you don't personal like electric cars everybody should enthusiastically welcome them because gas will get cheaper and gas cars get better and less expensive. This on top of ridding ourselves of dictator control of the US economy through OPEC and the American funding of terrorism and nuclear proliferating in the hands of madmen.

That's the market working like the market works. However, what's being proposed is a regulatory solution created by the government.
 
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