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Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

But first...it has to work.

The wind energy industry has been recieving government subsidies for decades and is STILL losing money.

The first US rockets fell down as they were being launched. The investment proved fruitful.
 
The first US rockets fell down as they were being launched. The investment proved fruitful.

Well, then start pumping your private funds into a project and make us all look like fools, it's such a great idea. Whatcha' waitin' on?
 
The neocons didn't expect the Iraqis to fight back. After all they had no navy or airforce, We destroyed all that in the first Gulf war. They thought it would be a cakewalk.

"I can't tell you if the use of force in Iraq today would last five days, or five weeks, or five months, but it certainly isn't going to last any longer than that."
--Donald Rumsfeld, November 14, 2002

"It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months"
-- Donald Rumsfeld, February 7, 2003

"I think it will go relatively quickly. Weeks rather than months."
-- Dick Cheney, March 16, 2003"

Dick Cheney on War & Peace
Sadly, you are right. (BTW, you got mail)
 
Do you prefer sacrificing our young men and women to keep affordable oil flowing to our shores? How much did the Iraq war cost taxpayers? $3 trillion they say with the long term care required for the wounded and maimed.

Of course not, but theres no need to given the abundance of domestic oil. We get more oil from canada and mexico than the middle east.
 
Of course not, but theres no need to given the abundance of domestic oil. We get more oil from canada and mexico than the middle east.
STFU! That's supposed to be a secret.
 
As long as there are plastics on a car, and paint on a car, foam in the seats of the car, vinyl, faux leather, cloth, rubber, etc...cars are not weaning off of oil.


We have this obsession with gasoline, like it's the main use for oil.



It's not. It's not even close. We should try weaning water bottles off of oil first, then work our way UP to cars, lol.
 
And for fuel economy, unless we use more nuclear, electric cars are not the answer. He's putting the cart before the horse. He needs to be putting that money towards investing in power technology. We need to learn how to generate the power to operate electric cars better, not work on the electric cars. We have brown outs in CT every year, because our power companies can't keep up with current electricity consumption. I shudder to think what will happen is everyone here drove electric cars, lol.





He's right that we need to throw some money at R and D, but he's throwing it in the wrong direction.
 
And for fuel economy, unless we use more nuclear, electric cars are not the answer. He's putting the cart before the horse. He needs to be putting that money towards investing in power technology. We need to learn how to generate the power to operate electric cars better, not work on the electric cars. We have brown outs in CT every year, because our power companies can't keep up with current electricity consumption. I shudder to think what will happen is everyone here drove electric cars, lol.

He's right that we need to throw some money at R and D, but he's throwing it in the wrong direction.

No, hes not right. The federal govt should not be spending taxpayer money on energy production unless its directly related to defense.
 
And for fuel economy, unless we use more nuclear, electric cars are not the answer. He's putting the cart before the horse. He needs to be putting that money towards investing in power technology. We need to learn how to generate the power to operate electric cars better, not work on the electric cars. We have brown outs in CT every year, because our power companies can't keep up with current electricity consumption. I shudder to think what will happen is everyone here drove electric cars, lol.

He's right that we need to throw some money at R and D, but he's throwing it in the wrong direction.
Even though the US/Canada grid reaches peak capacity in many places, many times a year, believe it or not that is not the barrier to plug-in electric cars. The solution (IF one is going to use electric cars - and for urban use, it actually makes sense) is to charge at night. That is accommodated by demand billing rates that make it far more economical to charge during off-peak hours. The missing link, as it were, is some kind of load shedding scheme to protect regional distribution from overload - and plug-ins during peak hours would be a good target - both for very high cost near peak and shedding when peak exceeds capacity.

The sad part is grid reliability is no where near what it should be. The big crash on the Lake Erie loop a few years ago really pointed that out, and there have been literally hundreds of committee meetings and brain storming sessions ever since.

But, to look at it from a logical viewpoint instead of knee-jerk consummerism reaction: the real solution is NOT to have more generation, NOT to have more cars, NOT to have more grid capacity. The real solution is right in front of us and cost very little to begin, more to take to logical conclusion: STOP WASTING SO MUCH FRIGGING ENERGY.There is far more than enough available right now to stop foreign oil dependency, get everyone working productively, feed and clothe the nation(s) (I have to pluralize that because we waste even more energy per capita than the US).

To put that in the context of this thread: Obama, nor any other President has any right to waste money that a financially insolvent nation (that is what you are at $15+Bn in debt with over $100Bn in unfunded entitlement committments) does not have to play politics. The solution is not to throw more money into the very leaky pork barrel, but to tax the crap out of energy to discourage people from wasting it and to add that revenue to the budget. Doesn't cost a penny and raises many billions in revenue. It is also the market-neutral way to encourage intelligent energy use by consumers and develop business models that supply consumer goods that are energy efficient (vs. mining the subsidies and handouts).

There you have it: Cannuck's four sided plan to solve 99% of the nations problems, by INCREASING taxation - energy tax, fat tax, capital gains tax and VAT. Oh, that also means no income tax other than capital gains.
 
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The constitution is supreme to modern day laws. If you think its outdated and doesnt address something, there is a process to amend it.

Which unfortunately, in today's politically polarized times, doesn't work. That's one part of the Constitution that is outdated.
 
Of course not, but theres no need to given the abundance of domestic oil. We get more oil from canada and mexico than the middle east.

We haven't produced as much oil as we consume since 1971, regardless of who was in control of the government. Canada and Mexico also consume more oil than they produce.
 
As long as there are plastics on a car, and paint on a car, foam in the seats of the car, vinyl, faux leather, cloth, rubber, etc...cars are not weaning off of oil.


We have this obsession with gasoline, like it's the main use for oil.



It's not. It's not even close. We should try weaning water bottles off of oil first, then work our way UP to cars, lol.





"45% of all oil used in the U.S. goes to gasoline, which means we consume in excess of 180 million gallons of gasoline a day."

Top 16 uses of petroleum
 
We haven't produced as much oil as we consume since 1971, regardless of who was in control of the government. Canada and Mexico also consume more oil than they produce.

And yet those two are are major foreign suppliers of oil for us here in the US. Canada being our number one foreign supplier.
 
"45% of all oil used in the U.S. goes to gasoline, which means we consume in excess of 180 million gallons of gasoline a day."

Top 16 uses of petroleum

You took me to task when I asked about your initial 49% figure (I said I'd seen 43 to 47%). Okay, so 45%. And a similar amount being used for plastics. As people prove to be resistent to massive changes in their fuel supply, why not make the changes in plastics and achieve the same reduction you're after? I know we developed usable bio-plastics in the 70s, government funded.
 
We haven't produced as much oil as we consume since 1971, regardless of who was in control of the government. Canada and Mexico also consume more oil than they produce.

Wrong, you didnt do your research. Canada produces 3.6 million barrells a day, but only consumes 2.2 million. Mexico produce 2.9 million but only consumes 2.1 million. The US is the third largest oil producer in the world. With a lot more off limits. So, theres no need to send soldiers off to secure it elsewhere. Hey look, we agree!
 
And yet those two are are major foreign suppliers of oil for us here in the US. Canada being our number one foreign supplier.

And yet they import more oil than they export to us.

World oil prices (including the US) are determined by the world oil market. And most of the world's oil reserves are in the middle east.

World_Oil_Reserves_by_Region.PNG


Oil reserves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
How about we just look at US imports, nothing was said about reserves (btw those are guesstimated capacities in your chart there).

If you look at current figures, we import more from non-OPEC nations than we do OPEC nations. Canada is by far our largest supplier, distant second is Saudi Arabia, and a very close third is Mexico. These are US government stats btw.
 
Wrong, you didnt do your research. Canada produces 3.6 million barrells a day, but only consumes 2.2 million. Mexico produce 2.9 million but only consumes 2.1 million. The US is the third largest oil producer in the world. With a lot more off limits. So, theres no need to send soldiers off to secure it elsewhere. Hey look, we agree!

The US represents about 4% of the worlds population and uses 25% of the world's oil. The last year the US could produce as much oil as it consumed was 1971,



Canada - "Oil - imports: 1.088 million bbl/day (2009 est.)

Definition: This entry is the total oil imported in barrels per day (bbl/day), including both crude oil and oil products.

Source: CIA World Factbook - Unless otherwise noted, information in this page is accurate as of July 26, 2012"

Canada Oil - imports - Economy


Mexico - "Oil - imports: 496,000 bbl/day (2009 est.)

Definition: This entry is the total oil imported in barrels per day (bbl/day), including both crude oil and oil products.

Source: CIA World Factbook - Unless otherwise noted, information in this page is accurate as of July 26, 2012"

Mexico Oil - imports - Economy
 
You took me to task when I asked about your initial 49% figure (I said I'd seen 43 to 47%). Okay, so 45%. And a similar amount being used for plastics. As people prove to be resistent to massive changes in their fuel supply, why not make the changes in plastics and achieve the same reduction you're after? I know we developed usable bio-plastics in the 70s, government funded.

I'm all for using bio plastics. But show me your source that says the US uses 45% of it oil to make plastic?
 
I'm all for using bio plastics. But show me your source that says the US uses 45% of it oil to make plastic?

Well since the EIA doesn't keep that stat we'll have to look elsewhere (but what the heck do you think plastics are made from?).

From the EIA:
EIA cannot determine exactly the amount of crude oil produced in the United States (U.S.) that is consumed, as refined products, in the U.S. However, the majority of the crude oil produced in the U.S. is refined in U.S. refineries. The U.S. also produces other liquids that are used in the refining process that are added or blended with the refined products. In December 2012, the U.S. produced about 7.03 million barrels of crude oil per day and imported about 7.58 million barrels per day.

EIA is not able to track how much domestically produced crude oil and other liquids are exported in the form of refined products. The small quantity of crude oil produced in the U.S. that is exported, nearly all to Canada, may actually be returned to the U.S. as refined products.

The U.S. became a (slight) net exporter (exported more than we imported) of refined petroleum products in 2008. Refined petroleum products produced in the U.S. from both domestic and imported crude oil are exported to other countries. The volume of net exports of refined products in December 2012 was equivalent to about 8.5% of the total volume of U.S. petroleum consumption in December 2012.

Start here:

Plastic bags are made from oil: it takes about 430,000 gallons of oil to produce 100 million plastic bags, and the U.S. goes through 380 billion of them a year.

A statistics class at Indiana U did the math: more than 1.6 billion gallons of oil are used each year for plastic bags alone. The more we use plastic bags, the more we waste oil.

Then just to show you why the answer can be hard to find.

Many claim to have a concrete figure, but those figures are all over the map ranging from 2% to 25% of all oil used goes to plastics.

However, you're ducking the point - why not replace oil usage for all non-fuel usage of oil first?
 
Well, then start pumping your private funds into a project and make us all look like fools, it's such a great idea. Whatcha' waitin' on?

Which deviates from what I said. The Space Race was publicly funded.
 
Then change it.

It can't be changed because the only mechanism to change it is no longer functional. The mechanism itself has failed.
 
And, if it was such a groovy idea, the oil companies would have already cornered the market

It is not in the oil companies best interest to have an alternative fuel source available, especially if it is cheaper. There is not way oil companies will go down without kicking and screaming. You can be sure they already do everything in their power and financially to prevent any competition with alternative fuels.
 
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