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Thread: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Preparing for the future reminds the people that we have one.
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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    You're arguing against a position I did not take. That these are worthwhile is precisely my point (although you didn't cover that jojoba oil was also grown as a replacement for motor oils). All this research was done back in the 70s, much of it government funded. My point is, we've already paid for the research, already made the developments, we don't need to continue paying for the reinvention of the wheel.
    So your theory is that if it wasn't developed in the 1970's that it doesn't need to be developed? Ha!
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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If that's the case, why aren't you investing alot of your money, recruiting other investors, producing these sources and blowing petro-fuels out of the market?

    If it's a no-brainer, as you suggest, it should be a piece of cake. Right?
    Was it private investors alone that developed nuclear energy, or the internet, or petro fuels for that matter?
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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Research money can't create energy out of nothing any better than furrowing our brow in contemplation. That's Newton's third law folks. We can't think energy into existence. Increasing energy efficiency is a worthwhile endeavor, but being efficient with energy doesn't create energy either. With the decline of oil comes the decline of the human species. There's no benign source of energy with high EROEI. It does not exist.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Research money can't create energy out of nothing any better than furrowing our brow in contemplation. That's Newton's third law folks. We can't think energy into existence. Increasing energy efficiency is a worthwhile endeavor, but being efficient with energy doesn't create energy either. With the decline of oil comes the decline of the human species. There's no benign source of energy with high EROEI. It does not exist.

    We already have the energy sources, the sun and the wind. Research is needed to find ways to harness them with greater cost effectiveness than dirty fuels.
    Do you deny what a breakthrough would be storage batteries that are inexpensive, high capacity, and long time spans between needed recharge?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We already have the energy sources, the sun and the wind. Research is needed to find ways to harness them with greater cost effectiveness than dirty fuels.
    Research does not necessarily yield breakthroughs that will save 8, 9, 10+ billion people. Perhaps the harsh truth is that wind and sun, while ubiquitous, cannot possibly yield the energy that will save our species. Especially not a species that relies on oil to plant, fertilize, and harvest crops out of nutrient-depleted soils and to ship goods all over the planet.

    Don't be naive. All the money in the world poured into research will not create a battery that will power a freighter across the Pacific. Without fossil fuels our entire global economy unravels and we descend into chaos. That unpleasantry is the most painfully obvious yet most sweepingly denied of any major issue we currently face.

    Do you deny what a breakthrough would be storage batteries that are inexpensive, high capacity, and long time spans between needed recharge?
    What are you asking me here? Do I deny that a fantasy would be fantastic? Well of course it would. It would be great if we could research pixie dust and fly where we needed to go. But research does not create pixie dust any better than it makes weak energy sources strong. Newton's third law, people.
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 03-17-13 at 03:58 AM.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Research does not necessarily yield breakthroughs that will save 8, 9, 10+ billion people. Perhaps the harsh truth is that wind and sun, while ubiquitous, cannot possibly yield the energy that will save our species. Especially not a species that relies on oil to plant, fertilize, and harvest crops out of nutrient-depleted soils and to ship goods all over the planet.

    Don't be naive. All the money in the world poured into research will not create a battery that will power a freighter across the Pacific. Without fossil fuels our entire global economy unravels and we descend into chaos. That unpleasantry is the most painfully obvious yet most sweepingly denied of any major issue we currently face.



    What are you asking me here? Do I deny that a fantasy would be fantastic? Well of course it would. It would be great if we could research pixie dust and fly where we needed to go. But research does not create pixie dust any better than it makes weak energy sources strong. Newton's third law, people.

    So you deny the benefits to mankind of the public private partnership that developed nuclear energy, the internet, and space travel?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    So you deny the benefits to mankind of the public private partnership that developed nuclear energy, the internet, and space travel?
    Why are you moving the goalposts?

    I am not denying anything other than the delusion that research begets energy. We're binging our way through fossil fuels pretty much as fast as we possibly can. They are finite. Without them we decline as a species. I do not deny the benefits of technological progress, but I do not place blind faith in it either.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Why are you moving the goalposts?

    I am not denying anything other than the delusion that research begets energy. We're binging our way through fossil fuels pretty much as fast as we possibly can. They are finite. Without them we decline as a species. I do not deny the benefits of technological progress, but I do not place blind faith in it either.

    Not moving goal posts. I was pointing out the flaws in your thinking. Thankfully, the majority of us haven't given up on life after fossil fuels. And no one made the claim the point of research was to develop new sources of energy, the research is to learn how to harness it more cheaply.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Not moving goal posts. I was pointing out the flaws in your thinking. Thankfully, the majority of us haven't given up on life after fossil fuels. And no one made the claim the point of research was to develop new sources of energy, the research is to learn how to harness it more cheaply.
    EROEI. Research can improve that marginally.

    We can't run the global economy and feed 8+ billion people on alternative forms energy charged into batteries, any better than one could be a body-builder eating nothing but celery. Yes, there are calories in celery. No, an elite athlete cannot sustain on it. It's folly.

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