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Thread: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

  1. #51
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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "Jojoba oil is used as a replacement for whale oil and its derivatives, such as cetyl alcohol. The ban on importing whale oil to the US in 1971 led to the discovery that jojoba oil is "in many regards superior to sperm oil for applications in the cosmetics and other industries."[1]

    Jojoba oil is found as an additive in many cosmetic products, especially those marketed as being made from natural ingredients. In particular, such products commonly containing jojoba are lotions and moisturizers, hair shampoos and conditioners. Or, the pure oil itself may be used on skin or hair.

    Jojoba oil is a fungicide, and can be used for controlling mildew.[9]

    Like olestra, jojoba oil is edible but non-caloric and non-digestible, meaning the oil will pass through the intestines unchanged and can cause a stool condition called steatorrhea.[10]

    Jojoba biodiesel has been explored as a cheap, sustainable fuel that can serve as a substitute for petroleum diesel"
    Jojoba oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




    "Algae holds great promise as a source of biofuel: it’s rich in oil like corn, but it can be cultivated without competing for land with food crops, and researchers are developing energy-efficient ways to process it."
    Algae Biofuel Holds Great Promise, But Can Its Production Grow? | TPM Idea Lab




    "One half of U.S. households drive less than 30 miles a day and 78 percent of work commuters travel 40 miles or less each day,"
    GM Resurrects Its Electric Car (with Tweaks): Scientific American




    Geothermal Heat Pump | Save Money & Energy | Alabama Power




    "Stabilised rammed earth is one of the most environmentally-friendly and energy-efficient construction materials in the world. Why? Rammed earth is environmentally-friendly because it has low embodied energy. This means it has very little impact on the environment both in its production for use as a building material, and its lifetime as part of the building. Rammed earth is energy efficient because unlike most other building materials it is possible to build a true solar-passive rammed earth home which requires no air-conditioners or space heaters. That's a big difference to both the environment and your pocket! How does rammed earth do this? The answer is its high thermal mass."
    Facts About Rammed Earth




    "Micro hydro is a type of hydroelectric power that typically produce up to 100 kW of electricity using the natural flow of water. These installations can provide power to an isolated home or small community, or are sometimes connected to electric power networks. There are many of these installations around the world, particularly in developing nations as they can provide an economical source of energy without the purchase of fuel.[1] Micro hydro systems complement photovoltaic solar energy systems because in many areas, water flow, and thus available hydro power, is highest in the winter when solar energy is at a minimum. Micro hydro is frequently accomplished with a pelton wheel for high head, low flow water supply. The installation is often just a small dammed pool, at the top of a waterfall, with several hundred feet of pipe leading to a small generator housing."
    Micro hydro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




    "Bioplastics are a form of plastics derived from renewable biomass sources, such as vegetable fats and oils, corn starch, pea starch[1] or microbiota.[2] Common plastics, such as fossil-fuel plastics, are derived from petroleum- these plastics rely more on scarce fossil fuels and produce more greenhouse gas. Some, but not all, bioplastics are designed to biodegrade. Biodegradable bioplastics can break down in either anaerobic or aerobic environments, depending on how they are manufactured. There are a variety of materials bioplastics that can be composed of, including: starches, cellulose, or other biopolymers. Some common applications of bioplastics are packaging materials, dining utensils, food packaging, and insulation."
    Bioplastic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Sorry, the facts show that all of these endeavors have been worthwhile.
    You're arguing against a position I did not take. That these are worthwhile is precisely my point (although you didn't cover that jojoba oil was also grown as a replacement for motor oils). All this research was done back in the 70s, much of it government funded. My point is, we've already paid for the research, already made the developments, we don't need to continue paying for the reinvention of the wheel.

  2. #52
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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And the research will find alternatives and increase our level of technology. And research isn't free. Researchers who puzzle these things out and come up with ideas need to eat, too. Waiting for some tinker in a garage to have a eureka moment isn't a feasible method of developing new ideas. I get that you don't want to direct the funding towards electric cars. But your hostility towards hiring scientists to come up with better solutions is counterproductive.
    Again, as shown, we have already done this, bought and paid for - 40 years ago and in some cases, well before that.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Profit is an artificial concept that limits which benefits of a given endeavor we care about and which ones we don't. Usually it just comes down to who it benefits and who it doesn't. Also, your hypothetical is extremely limited in its scope. Money is merely the exchange rate between labor and resources. It's a concept just as artificial as profit. The actual solvency of a society is based simply on how much work needs to be done to keep it functioning (and improving). So long as that amount is less than the work that your society can do, you're solvent. Profit is not required, nor is the accumulation of wealth. Especially not the accumulation of vast wealth by a small minority at the expense of everyone else.

    Nothing as necessary as energy is never going to be profitable, even by antiquated, plutocratic, capitalist sensibilities. Whichever the most effective and efficient form of power, that's the one people will want, and that's the one that will be most profitable. Zoom out beyond dollar signs, and you'll see that whichever form of power means best return on labor and resources is the best. As the resource dwindles, like any non-renewable energy source (including oil) will, that ratio drops.


    No, profit is the positive result of investment. If you don't reap a profit, you can't keep investing, because before long you will run out of something to invest.

    But let's just take the simple answer. What possible evidence could you have to suggest that renewable energy sources, or at least cleaner and longer lasting ones than oil, can never be profitable?
    I never said that it can never be profitable. I'm saying that, so far, it isn't profitable and as long as it isn't profitable it makes no sense to throw money at something that doesn't make a profit and isn't efficient. It's called, "throwing good money after bad".

    I have another simple question: if this is such a good idea, why aren't you sinking YOUR money into and encouraging other people to sink their hard earned money into it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "Jojoba oil is used as a replacement for whale oil and its derivatives, such as cetyl alcohol. The ban on importing whale oil to the US in 1971 led to the discovery that jojoba oil is "in many regards superior to sperm oil for applications in the cosmetics and other industries."[1]

    Jojoba oil is found as an additive in many cosmetic products, especially those marketed as being made from natural ingredients. In particular, such products commonly containing jojoba are lotions and moisturizers, hair shampoos and conditioners. Or, the pure oil itself may be used on skin or hair.

    Jojoba oil is a fungicide, and can be used for controlling mildew.[9]

    Like olestra, jojoba oil is edible but non-caloric and non-digestible, meaning the oil will pass through the intestines unchanged and can cause a stool condition called steatorrhea.[10]

    Jojoba biodiesel has been explored as a cheap, sustainable fuel that can serve as a substitute for petroleum diesel"
    Jojoba oil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




    "Algae holds great promise as a source of biofuel: itís rich in oil like corn, but it can be cultivated without competing for land with food crops, and researchers are developing energy-efficient ways to process it."
    Algae Biofuel Holds Great Promise, But Can Its Production Grow? | TPM Idea Lab




    "One half of U.S. households drive less than 30 miles a day and 78 percent of work commuters travel 40 miles or less each day,"
    GM Resurrects Its Electric Car (with Tweaks): Scientific American




    Geothermal Heat Pump | Save Money & Energy | Alabama Power




    "Stabilised rammed earth is one of the most environmentally-friendly and energy-efficient construction materials in the world. Why? Rammed earth is environmentally-friendly because it has low embodied energy. This means it has very little impact on the environment both in its production for use as a building material, and its lifetime as part of the building. Rammed earth is energy efficient because unlike most other building materials it is possible to build a true solar-passive rammed earth home which requires no air-conditioners or space heaters. That's a big difference to both the environment and your pocket! How does rammed earth do this? The answer is its high thermal mass."
    Facts About Rammed Earth




    "Micro hydro is a type of hydroelectric power that typically produce up to 100 kW of electricity using the natural flow of water. These installations can provide power to an isolated home or small community, or are sometimes connected to electric power networks. There are many of these installations around the world, particularly in developing nations as they can provide an economical source of energy without the purchase of fuel.[1] Micro hydro systems complement photovoltaic solar energy systems because in many areas, water flow, and thus available hydro power, is highest in the winter when solar energy is at a minimum. Micro hydro is frequently accomplished with a pelton wheel for high head, low flow water supply. The installation is often just a small dammed pool, at the top of a waterfall, with several hundred feet of pipe leading to a small generator housing."
    Micro hydro - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




    "Bioplastics are a form of plastics derived from renewable biomass sources, such as vegetable fats and oils, corn starch, pea starch[1] or microbiota.[2] Common plastics, such as fossil-fuel plastics, are derived from petroleum- these plastics rely more on scarce fossil fuels and produce more greenhouse gas. Some, but not all, bioplastics are designed to biodegrade. Biodegradable bioplastics can break down in either anaerobic or aerobic environments, depending on how they are manufactured. There are a variety of materials bioplastics that can be composed of, including: starches, cellulose, or other biopolymers. Some common applications of bioplastics are packaging materials, dining utensils, food packaging, and insulation."
    Bioplastic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Sorry, the facts show that all of these endeavors have been worthwhile.
    If that's the case, why aren't you investing alot of your money, recruiting other investors, producing these sources and blowing petro-fuels out of the market?

    If it's a no-brainer, as you suggest, it should be a piece of cake. Right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    something doesn't have to be immediately profitable to be worthwhile. i tend to doubt that we are at the apex of renewable technology yet. either way, i prefer renewables and nuclear to anything that we have now, and it's my opinion that we should devote resources to getting out of the oil game before the game turns really ugly.
    Put up some capital and get the ball rolling; since it's such a great idea and all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  6. #56
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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    If that's the case, why aren't you investing alot of your money, recruiting other investors, producing these sources and blowing petro-fuels out of the market?

    If it's a no-brainer, as you suggest, it should be a piece of cake. Right?
    And that's the point. The research was done and we paid for it. THEN the market was supposed to step in and start proliferating the result of all that effort. Massive fail at that point. Oil prices went down, people shelved the research.

    But it still all exists, we still have the knowledge - we don't need to pay now to reinvent it.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And the research will find alternatives and increase our level of technology. And research isn't free. Researchers who puzzle these things out and come up with ideas need to eat, too.
    So do I and I need to keep as much of my money as I can, vice giving it to the government, to pay some clown to try and figure out how to make a phonograph needle out of a peanut.

    Waiting for some tinker in a garage to have a eureka moment isn't a feasible method of developing new ideas. I get that you don't want to direct the funding towards electric cars. But your hostility towards hiring scientists to come up with better solutions is counterproductive.
    That's exactly how the greatest inventions in history have happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    And that's the point. The research was done and we paid for it. THEN the market was supposed to step in and start proliferating the result of all that effort. Massive fail at that point. Oil prices went down, people shelved the research.

    But it still all exists, we still have the knowledge - we don't need to pay now to reinvent it.
    And it doesn't work.

    Or, in the case of things like ethonal, it's totally counter-productive. Making our food source into our fuel source is the most idiotic notion of all time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    And it doesn't work.

    Or, in the case of things like ethonal, it's totally counter-productive. Making our food source into our fuel source is the most idiotic notion of all time.
    Agreed. And where those things do work, they are much more expensive or are so far out of our average lifestyle comfort zones the chances of mass adoption are close to nil.

    Ethanol is an excellent example. Not only is it trading food for fuel, but ethanol is hell on the operation of machinery and lowers the effective lifetime operation of the engines. That means the vehicle operates with it's maximum efficiency for a shorter portion of it's life, and this means more pollution, not less.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    because it's not immediately profitable, and oil is.
    The private sector already spends billions on R&D for energy, so why wouldn't they have simply directed it at electric cars? Hint, it has less to do about profitability and more to do with viability.

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