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Thread: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    A tax deduction is not a subsidy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    According to the far right only.
    According to a reasonable person only.
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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    When we give a tax break we are voluntarily reducing our income. If you wish to call it elimination of a tax break instead of eliminating a subsidy, so be it.

    Its one of those tomato/tomato semantics arguments.
    More like a tomato/turnip or a tomato/slice of ham.
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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    Look up the term Electrical Resistance. There is a 1-10% power loss in long distance high voltage power transmission do to resistance. Doesn't sound like much but it adds up pretty fast and any loss is a loss. And also because we are talking about a very large scale so 1-10% accounts for huge losses.

    So no they are not more efficient than I think. And thanx for the very simplistic explanation but I am already aware how power distribution works. I grew up near a river (Clackamas) that had several hydroelectric dams it was the standard in my school district that in science class we learned all about power production. Plus it helps that I have some schooling in that field.

    And I was referring to major power outages, not local disruptions. Things like blackouts and rolling blackouts because the power grid is archaic. Like the one that happened February 8th and 9th this year in the northeastern US because of that nor'easter. 650,000 customers were without power.


    Last year Alone saw Millions of Americans without power. There was the Northeast Blackout of 1965 and things really are not better than then they are actually worse, and in that one 30 million customers were without power. Its a matter of national security and the realization that old technology isnt going to cut it in a modern world.
    The math for calculating basic power loss is simplistic, but usually when explaining electrical principles I try to keep it somewhat simple.

    Not everyone has the experience and education I have built up over 30 years of practical applications in everything from 3 mega watt generators to troubleshooting surface mount components on PCB boards to designing and installing Energy Management Systems for medium to large office buildings and industrial plants.

    You want to increase the technical aspect of this debate ? Go ahead, I'll wait.

    And you want ME to look up "electrical resistance " ? Talk about simplistic.

    And living next to a hydro-electrical damn serves no educational purpose and it takes a bit more effort than selective osmosis to understand electricity.

    We of-course do not live in a perfect world where the fundamental laws of physics change according to our personal ideologies and beliefs. We are A LONG way away from using super conductive materials in any practical application.

    So we use the level of technology available to engineer the most effective and efficient power grids with a understanding that some losses are to be expected. A 1 to 10% loss in transmission lines is a acceptable variable if the alternatives are Solar and or wind power which are both highly over rated and a poor attempt to live up to a corrupt narrative that fossil fuels are evil and will destroy our planet.

    Power loss is a understood consequences of large grids and anyone who cries about the rare loss of power or power loss after a storm really has only themselves to blame.

    Whole home generators that run on very cheap natural gas are a GREAT investment.
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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    The math for calculating basic power loss is simplistic, but usually when explaining electrical principles I try to keep it somewhat simple.

    Not everyone has the experience and education I have built up over 30 years of practical applications in everything from 3 mega watt generators to troubleshooting surface mount components on PCB boards to designing and installing Energy Management Systems for medium to large office buildings and industrial plants.

    You want to increase the technical aspect of this debate ? Go ahead, I'll wait.

    And you want ME to look up "electrical resistance " ? Talk about simplistic.

    And living next to a hydro-electrical damn serves no educational purpose and it takes a bit more effort than selective osmosis to understand electricity.

    We of-course do not live in a perfect world where the fundamental laws of physics change according to our personal ideologies and beliefs. We are A LONG way away from using super conductive materials in any practical application.

    So we use the level of technology available to engineer the most effective and efficient power grids with a understanding that some losses are to be expected. A 1 to 10% loss in transmission lines is a acceptable variable if the alternatives are Solar and or wind power which are both highly over rated and a poor attempt to live up to a corrupt narrative that fossil fuels are evil and will destroy our planet.

    Power loss is a understood consequences of large grids and anyone who cries about the rare loss of power or power loss after a storm really has only themselves to blame.

    Whole home generators that run on very cheap natural gas are a GREAT investment.
    I see so your only real point is to dis solar and EV's which is fine if thats what you want to do. But after a point it gets kind of repetitive.


    Whats rather funny though is that you didnt mention resistance at all and went with pointless math to make a pointless claim. If you truly do know all about the then you should be well aware of this countries current lack of a adequate power transmission infrastructure.

    U.S. energy infrastructure grade rises — to D+ - Electric Light & Power


    A grade of D indicates that the country's energy infrastructure is "poor" or "at risk."
    A council of ASCE members assigns the grades according to the following eight criteria: capacity, condition, funding, future need, operation, maintenance, public safety, resilience and innovation.



    And you were saying?

    Oh yea you were crying about wind and solar.

    Conclusion and recommendations
    Looking ahead in the 21st century, the nation is increasingly adopting technologies that will automate the electric grid and help manage congestion points. In turn, this will require robust integration of transmission and distribution systems so that the network continues to be reliable.
    Investments in the grid, select pipeline systems, and new technologies have helped alleviate congestion problems in recent years, but capacity and an aging system will be issues in the long term. In addition, with an automated, dynamic energy grid system comes the increased risk of cybersecurity threats. Protecting the nation’s energy delivery systems from cyber attacks and ensuring that these systems can recover is vital to national security and economic well-being.
    Adopt a national energy policy that anticipates and adapts to future energy needs and promotes the development of sustainable energy sources, while increasing the efficiency of energy use, promoting conservation, and decreasing dependence on fossil fuels as sources are depleted. Such a policy must be adaptable and scalable to local and state policy.
    Provide mechanisms for timely approval of transmission lines to minimize the time from preliminary planning to operation.
    Identify and prioritize risks to energy security, and develop standards and guidelines for managing those risks.
    Design and construct additional transmission grid infrastructure to efficiently deliver power from remote geographic generation sources to developed regions that have the greatest demand requirements.
    Create incentives to promote energy conservation and the concurrent development and installation of highly efficient coal, natural gas, nuclear, and renewable (solar, wind, hydro, biomass, and geothermal) generation.
    Continue research to improve and enhance the nation’s transmission and generation infrastructure as well as the deployment of technologies such as smart grid, real-time forecasting for transmission capacity, and sustainable energy generation which provide a reasonable return on investment.
    The ASCE, founded in 1852, is the country's oldest national civil engineering organization. It represents more than 140,000 civil engineers in private practice, government, industry, and academia who are dedicated to advancing the science and profession of civil engineering.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    According to a reasonable person only.

    Its your opinion that most people are not reasonable? Oh, I see, you are libertarian. Never mind.
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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    I haven't been able to stick my nose in for a while - kind of busy with work the last few days.

    BUT: I would like to guerrilla post and run back to work, my apologies up front.

    Since I am usually the guy who has to sign the cheque for my/our decisions, I think (or at least hope) I look at things objectively rather than dogmatically. Doesn't mean I can't or won't do things idealistically, realizing the consequences (as much as possible).

    EVs are not a good thing or a bad thing, they are just another thing. They will NEVER replace major bits of our transportation infrastructure with the technologies we currently have or reasonably expect to have. Doesn't mean we should not develop them. Not fair to hide behind their lack of success as "new" tech, because one must remember that they have been around for about 120 years. While they ARE (IMHO) an excellent choice for urban commuting, I still have to stand back and ask why the hell we are urban commuting in the first place? This is a bandaid fix over a horrible open wound - but realistically one that can be put to work in a hurry, so why not? There are two things one SHOULD have for urban EVs: off peak charging (FORGET this BS about 5 minute charges - we DO NOT have the daytime capacity to do so, and will not likely unless we really start to smarten up energy use) and alternative & sustainable stand-alone charging. In other words, in my perfect world, you would only be able to charge your EV in daytime with solar or wind resources OFF GRID. Don't like it (or can't afford it) STAY HOME (and do the first truly energy conservative thing since the discussion began).

    I get a laugh out of the civil eng society grading grid or other infrastructure reliability. I have to remind myself that these are the people who have been the technical resource behind all infrastructure design and development since day one, and the same idiots who put rebar into concrete (guaranteeing its failure - amongst so many other stupid things). As with so many other things, this is one part of pubic utilities that was allowed to develop with very little forethought. This kind of knee-jerk engineering is what backs us into a bad corner. All of the little tweeks here and there will not solve this problem until there is a wholesale conceptual shift into how to construct a transmission backbone to which regional distribution and generation will interface only without risk to the transmission side (the so-called "smart" grid in the extreme). Devising transportation solutions that add to this already overtaxed and under-engineered mish-mash is a really, REALLY bad way to go. Thus my comments in the last paragraph about how to charge you EV.

    BTW: there are two levels of things that fail when the lights go out: the transmission system (where the high voltage part of the grid can't deal with a major disruption in generation or distribution) and much more commonly the distribution system itself. The latter is one case where our penchant to do the cheapest thing we can (responding to "market" forces, rather than seeking quality solutions - thnk WalMart and China here). We lose so much power after a storm because we have so much overhead distribution. While it is far more expensive, there are a dozen or so major advantages to underground distribution lines that can provide infinitely better reliability from storm damage. But, we'd rather go to WalMart (figuratively, of course) and buy overhead line.

    So, to refer back to the topic of the thread: I see this kind of mindless, political posturing as typical of the half-baked, knee-jerk reaction to a problem rather than a well thought out approach to "eaning cars off of oil". Obama will do just as every administration before him has done: build another really stupid bureaucracy that the THINK will load the pork barrel up in exchange for some more votes next time around. At the citizen level: there have been EXREMELY efficient cars available since WWII - but Americans have bought barely a tny fraction of one percent of their fleet from such sources. Instead, look at the parking lot at the mall or Wally-world - or better yet look at the really big parking lot we call "freeways" in the morning metro commute - THERE is your real problem.
    Last edited by cannuck; 03-23-13 at 11:18 AM.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    I see so your only real point is to dis solar and EV's which is fine if thats what you want to do. But after a point it gets kind of repetitive.


    Whats rather funny though is that you didnt mention resistance at all and went with pointless math to make a pointless claim. If you truly do know all about the then you should be well aware of this countries current lack of a adequate power transmission infrastructure.

    U.S. energy infrastructure grade rises — to D+ - Electric Light & Power


    A grade of D indicates that the country's energy infrastructure is "poor" or "at risk."
    A council of ASCE members assigns the grades according to the following eight criteria: capacity, condition, funding, future need, operation, maintenance, public safety, resilience and innovation.



    And you were saying?

    Oh yea you were crying about wind and solar.

    Conclusion and recommendations
    Looking ahead in the 21st century, the nation is increasingly adopting technologies that will automate the electric grid and help manage congestion points. In turn, this will require robust integration of transmission and distribution systems so that the network continues to be reliable.
    Investments in the grid, select pipeline systems, and new technologies have helped alleviate congestion problems in recent years, but capacity and an aging system will be issues in the long term. In addition, with an automated, dynamic energy grid system comes the increased risk of cybersecurity threats. Protecting the nation’s energy delivery systems from cyber attacks and ensuring that these systems can recover is vital to national security and economic well-being.
    Adopt a national energy policy that anticipates and adapts to future energy needs and promotes the development of sustainable energy sources, while increasing the efficiency of energy use, promoting conservation, and decreasing dependence on fossil fuels as sources are depleted. Such a policy must be adaptable and scalable to local and state policy.
    Provide mechanisms for timely approval of transmission lines to minimize the time from preliminary planning to operation.
    Identify and prioritize risks to energy security, and develop standards and guidelines for managing those risks.
    Design and construct additional transmission grid infrastructure to efficiently deliver power from remote geographic generation sources to developed regions that have the greatest demand requirements.
    Create incentives to promote energy conservation and the concurrent development and installation of highly efficient coal, natural gas, nuclear, and renewable (solar, wind, hydro, biomass, and geothermal) generation.
    Continue research to improve and enhance the nation’s transmission and generation infrastructure as well as the deployment of technologies such as smart grid, real-time forecasting for transmission capacity, and sustainable energy generation which provide a reasonable return on investment.
    The ASCE, founded in 1852, is the country's oldest national civil engineering organization. It represents more than 140,000 civil engineers in private practice, government, industry, and academia who are dedicated to advancing the science and profession of civil engineering.
    I asked if you would like to increase the technical nature of this debate.

    You quoted links, and someone else's work.

    It's clear your personal knowledge of the principles of the creation, storage and distribution of electricity are limited to a quick Google search. Reading or listening to the ignorant explain how great green or renewable energy is like getting a lesson in Mathematics from a Chimpanzee.

    Honestly, your level of understanding is based on a political ideology, and that's the problem with "green energy", the ignorant are the one's who push for it's very inefficient and NOT so green development.

    Here, this should be easy for you.

    What's the sinusoidal characteristics of output of your typical VFD and how does it's manipulation contribute to motor efficiency ?

    Another easy one, what's the the phase angle for a power factor of 1.0 and what influence does capacitance or inductance or both have on the power quality of a grid ? Explain in detail the effect of reactance on power generation, explain what is and the effect of non-linear loads and explain how to offset the effects of any of these if they are indeed detrimental to power quality. Explain the difference in linear and non-linear.

    And do this with out consulting someone else's work.

    Last one and it's pretty simple, if I wanted to build a multiplexing 8 bit shift register, which IC would I need, from what class of IC's would I select it from and what is the frequency of the clock chip would I need ?

    Rabid Alpaca is also very knowledgeable so he can't answer.
    Last edited by Fenton; 03-23-13 at 03:25 PM.
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

  8. #488
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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Show me the CO2 emissions specs for your diesel car of choice?
    Already posted the emissions specs for B80. SVO/WVO are lower than those.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Already posted the emissions specs for B80. SVO/WVO are lower than those.
    Here is my favourite front runner for diesel (although this IS a diesel hybrid) commuter. Note: it will be produced this year, but I can guarantee you it will never be sold in North America. Volkswagen 1-litre car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by cannuck View Post
    Here is my favourite front runner for diesel (although this IS a diesel hybrid) commuter. Note: it will be produced this year, but I can guarantee you it will never be sold in North America. Volkswagen 1-litre car - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Cool. Yeah, the US has this thing about diesel passenger vehicles. The older models a few decades ago were pretty stinky (everyone hated being behind them). That rep has held.

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