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Thread: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

  1. #461
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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    The electric car is lesser expensive option for the majority of commuters and is cleaner, over the lifetime of the vehicle.
    That's just not true. It's far cheaper in all aspects and cleaner over the lifetime to buy an used diesel and run it SVO/WVO/B80. No changes in infrastructure needed (and those cost carbon). And we can further exploit the tech we've already spent 100 years perfecting.

    If you want to go the extra mile, start replacing all the fluid oils with jojoba or some other alternative that was fully developed and paid for 40 years ago.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Humanity never got anywhere through stagnation. Stagnation is slow death.
    Using tech we've already developed and spent the money to develop is not stagnation.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    You don't need a storage system for a
    hybrid electrical system that can cut your power bills in half and the payback is only 5 - 8 years. The warranty is for 25 years on my
    inverter and PV panels.

    The electric car is lesser expensive option for the majority of commuters and is cleaner, over the lifetime of the vehicle.
    Ive seen some of the hybrid systems and I dont get it. There are better ways to cut down on your usage than getting into solar.

    Maximizing the R value of the envelope of your home and installing a 2 stage high Seer AC unit with high efficiency appliances is far more practical and cost effective.

    There is very little about a hybrid car that is " clean ". The production and disposal of the battery packs is very environmentally destructive.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Any stats that back that up?
    Which part? The car part or the disability part?
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Profit is an artificial concept that limits which benefits of a given endeavor we care about and which ones we don't. Usually it just comes down to who it benefits and who it doesn't. Also, your hypothetical is extremely limited in its scope. Money is merely the exchange rate between labor and resources. It's a concept just as artificial as profit. The actual solvency of a society is based simply on how much work needs to be done to keep it functioning (and improving). So long as that amount is less than the work that your society can do, you're solvent. Profit is not required, nor is the accumulation of wealth. Especially not the accumulation of vast wealth by a small minority at the expense of everyone else.

    Nothing as necessary as energy is never going to be profitable, even by antiquated, plutocratic, capitalist sensibilities. Whichever the most effective and efficient form of power, that's the one people will want, and that's the one that will be most profitable. Zoom out beyond dollar signs, and you'll see that whichever form of power means best return on labor and resources is the best. As the resource dwindles, like any non-renewable energy source (including oil) will, that ratio drops.

    But let's just take the simple answer. What possible evidence could you have to suggest that renewable energy sources, or at least cleaner and longer lasting ones than oil, can never be profitable?
    1. Profit might be an "artificial" concept but since we are talking about real human beings and how they are motivated we must take into consideration the benefits of R&D and the cost of such research which according to the OP would have an implied benefit as opposed to research that considered "pure" which does not.

    2. Money is an artificial system for the exchange of goods and services. But is for people like me superior to a barter system since I would be lost in such a system. And is superior still to a script system which is more open to manipulation of those in power than even our Federal Reserve system that is now in place.

    3. Your idea that "society" is "solvent" as long as the work required for upkeep is sufficient plus some for improvement scans but, as I imply by the quotes, society itself is an artificial concept which is somewhat vague and I interpret the term "solvent" as being the status quo.

    4. Your statement about profit not being required is correct in a limited sense such that R&D in a area in which has a good possible benefit can be considered an acceptable sunk cost if it doesn't have an applicable benefit in the near or intermediate term. This doesn't mean that overall R&D doesn't have to have a net benefit over time using the reasoning you provided.

    5. The idea of wealth not being necessary doesn't scan since the resources for R&D would have to come from the excess "work" from your point of view. And this excess work will have to have some cost against the hemostats of the "society" if it comes out of the baseline.

    6. Your statement that nothing necessary is going to be profitable is less a statement of reality than a statement of what you want reality to be. That which is necessary will always be profitable to any but the incompetent provider of goods and services.

    7. The technology of the future is not certain but simply using R&D on tek that has shown to be unacceptable is useless. This is the reason that the member Cephus has stated that he wants someone to give a concept before money is made available for Research.

    8. When the "non renewable resources" do dwindle then it becomes necessary to have other methods which I stated necessity ---> profitability.
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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    That's just not true. It's far cheaper in all aspects and cleaner over the lifetime to buy an used diesel and run it SVO/WVO/B80. No changes in infrastructure needed (and those cost carbon). And we can further exploit the tech we've already spent 100 years perfecting.

    If you want to go the extra mile, start replacing all the fluid oils with jojoba or some other alternative that was fully developed and paid for 40 years ago.
    I was referring to new car purchase options. And compare which one contributes most to global warming! You are ignoring that completely.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Ive seen some of the hybrid systems and I dont get it. There are better ways to cut down on your usage than getting into solar.
    I've not seen a cheaper way to produce your own power, what you got?

    Maximizing the R value of the envelope of your home and installing a 2 stage high Seer AC unit with high efficiency appliances is far more practical and cost effective.
    That was part of my passive solar design, but does not produce power as a hybrid PV system will. What home system produces power more cheaply than a hybrid PV system?




    There is very little about a hybrid car that is " clean ". The production and disposal of the battery packs is very environmentally destructive.
    That is why more research is needed. See the OP. But that doesn't negate the fact that electric cars have zero CO2 emission in use, so are not contributing to our worst environmental problem.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I was referring to new car purchase options. And compare which one contributes most to global warming! You are ignoring that completely.
    Cheaper and cleaner that way too. You can buy brand new diesel vehicles that will run SVO/WVO/B80 right off the showroom floor. Or if you need a van or truck, directly from the factory. You're not stuck with the inefficiencies of electric vehicles (range per charge, inefficiency of the engine).

    And we've already seen a diesel vehicle running SVO/WVO/B80 contributes less pollution than the electric vehicle. You're on your own with the AGW crap.

    A question that has always plagued me on the hybrid front - I'm presuming that one of the ideas behind hybrids is for cleaner emissions, right? Then why are the internal combustion engine components run using gasoline? Makes no sense that those engines be run on one of the fuels with the highest emissions.

    Why don't hygrids use diesel engines and SVO/WVO/B80? Of at least if non-diesel, propane?

    Oh, and everything I said about diesels and SVO/WVO/B80 is true of non-diesels running propane.
    Last edited by clownboy; 03-22-13 at 06:01 PM.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Cheaper and cleaner that way too. You can buy brand new diesel vehicles that will run SVO/WVO/B80 right off the showroom floor. Or if you need a van or truck, directly from the factory. You're not stuck with the inefficiencies of electric vehicles (range per charge, inefficiency of the engine).

    And we've already seen a diesel vehicle running SVO/WVO/B80 contributes less pollution than the electric vehicle. You're on your own with the AGW crap.
    Show me the CO2 emissions specs for your diesel car of choice?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    I've not seen a cheaper way to produce your
    own power, what you got?



    That was part of my passive solar design, but does not produce power as a hybrid PV system will. What home system produces power more cheaply than a hybrid PV system?






    That is why more research is needed. See the OP. But that doesn't negate the fact that electric cars have zero CO2 emission in use, so are not contributing to our worst environmental problem.
    Its a misnomer, " producing your own power".

    You pay for it all at once, or on a month to month basis.

    The choice comes down to comparitive cost over time.

    Hybrid systems are NOT free, and if I'm going to pay up front I gaurantee with some of the modern High SEER AC units and insulation options and modern high effeciency appliances.

    For example, my sisters new energy stzr rated home with two 21 SEER 3 Ton 2 stage units for 5300 Sq Ft with natural gas appliances.

    Average energy bill 178.00 a month.

    If you need your own power for emergency situations, install a whole home generator with internal switch gear that runs off natural gas.

    Hybrid ? Its stupid attempt to live up to a false narrative.

    They had hydrogen fuel cell technology ready to go. Why do you think it was ignored ?

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