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Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

We already have the energy sources, the sun and the wind. Research is needed to find ways to harness them with greater cost effectiveness than dirty fuels.

Research does not necessarily yield breakthroughs that will save 8, 9, 10+ billion people. Perhaps the harsh truth is that wind and sun, while ubiquitous, cannot possibly yield the energy that will save our species. Especially not a species that relies on oil to plant, fertilize, and harvest crops out of nutrient-depleted soils and to ship goods all over the planet.

Don't be naive. All the money in the world poured into research will not create a battery that will power a freighter across the Pacific. Without fossil fuels our entire global economy unravels and we descend into chaos. That unpleasantry is the most painfully obvious yet most sweepingly denied of any major issue we currently face.

Do you deny what a breakthrough would be storage batteries that are inexpensive, high capacity, and long time spans between needed recharge?

What are you asking me here? Do I deny that a fantasy would be fantastic? Well of course it would. It would be great if we could research pixie dust and fly where we needed to go. But research does not create pixie dust any better than it makes weak energy sources strong. Newton's third law, people.
 
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Research does not necessarily yield breakthroughs that will save 8, 9, 10+ billion people. Perhaps the harsh truth is that wind and sun, while ubiquitous, cannot possibly yield the energy that will save our species. Especially not a species that relies on oil to plant, fertilize, and harvest crops out of nutrient-depleted soils and to ship goods all over the planet.

Don't be naive. All the money in the world poured into research will not create a battery that will power a freighter across the Pacific. Without fossil fuels our entire global economy unravels and we descend into chaos. That unpleasantry is the most painfully obvious yet most sweepingly denied of any major issue we currently face.



What are you asking me here? Do I deny that a fantasy would be fantastic? Well of course it would. It would be great if we could research pixie dust and fly where we needed to go. But research does not create pixie dust any better than it makes weak energy sources strong. Newton's third law, people.


So you deny the benefits to mankind of the public private partnership that developed nuclear energy, the internet, and space travel?
 
So you deny the benefits to mankind of the public private partnership that developed nuclear energy, the internet, and space travel?

Why are you moving the goalposts?

I am not denying anything other than the delusion that research begets energy. We're binging our way through fossil fuels pretty much as fast as we possibly can. They are finite. Without them we decline as a species. I do not deny the benefits of technological progress, but I do not place blind faith in it either.
 
Why are you moving the goalposts?

I am not denying anything other than the delusion that research begets energy. We're binging our way through fossil fuels pretty much as fast as we possibly can. They are finite. Without them we decline as a species. I do not deny the benefits of technological progress, but I do not place blind faith in it either.


Not moving goal posts. I was pointing out the flaws in your thinking. Thankfully, the majority of us haven't given up on life after fossil fuels. And no one made the claim the point of research was to develop new sources of energy, the research is to learn how to harness it more cheaply.
 
Not moving goal posts. I was pointing out the flaws in your thinking. Thankfully, the majority of us haven't given up on life after fossil fuels. And no one made the claim the point of research was to develop new sources of energy, the research is to learn how to harness it more cheaply.

EROEI. Research can improve that marginally.

We can't run the global economy and feed 8+ billion people on alternative forms energy charged into batteries, any better than one could be a body-builder eating nothing but celery. Yes, there are calories in celery. No, an elite athlete cannot sustain on it. It's folly.
 
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Was it private investors alone that developed nuclear energy, or the internet, or petro fuels for that matter?

None of those took 50 years of funding with nothing to show for it.
 
Research does not necessarily yield breakthroughs that will save 8, 9, 10+ billion people.
I assume the thread was dealing only with the US, but of course the far greater issue worldwide and longterm is population.
Perhaps the harsh truth is that wind and sun, while ubiquitous, cannot possibly yield the energy that will save our species. Especially not a species that relies on oil to plant, fertilize, and harvest crops out of nutrient-depleted soils and to ship goods all over the planet.
There are only two sources of energy: solar and geo/nuclear - both of which, though finite, are very long term. Petroleum is but a small storage medium for solar energy. Wind is largely a short term (but somewhat consistent and in practical terms endless) reservoir of solar energy.

Don't be naive. All the money in the world poured into research will not create a battery that will power a freighter across the Pacific. Without fossil fuels our entire global economy unravels and we descend into chaos. That unpleasantry is the most painfully obvious yet most sweepingly denied of any major issue we currently face.
Just as is the case for dealing with sovereign debt, the whole petro phase will come and go with a bit of a shakeup, but so what? Civilization and technology have been around for about 4,000 years, and the petro phase has been barely over a century - and will not likely last another 100 years. Compare that with the rate of change of technology, and there is a sufficient amount of time to pull our coillective head out of our petro-a$$ and start thinking like the intelligent beings we pretend to be.

Face it: our global economy is NOT serving the species well. It has resulted in a culture of consumption based on finite resources, so by any measure, this pattern is not sustainable. Just like President Post Turtle, the whole world is focused on how to use more, rather than how to live sustainably.

My problem with government doing applied research is that it becomes tied to political agendae. This is a perfect example. Some half-wit goes to Washington and thoughtlessly puke up whatever his handlers put into his mouth without gagging on the intellectual poison of the attached reasoning (or in this case, complete LACK of reasoning). Before you can get these idiots pointed in the right direction, we need a very close look at what role government should be playing in EVERYTHING they do now (and, in fact if they should even be there - constitutionally or rationally). IMHO, FUNDAMENTAL research should be sponsored by government - as well as private sources, NEVER applied research (with a few noteworthy exceptions).

Let me give you an example: due to government funding applied research into alternative fuels, instead of going someplace intelligent, we end up with ethanol. Now you have political half-wits choosing winners and losers in the marketplace with all kinds of fallout. First of all, a really stupid fuel. Secondly, massive distortion in both domestic and international food markets. Thirdly, perpetuating the trend to destroying soils and aquifers due to intense ag practices. Finally, perpetuating the use of petroleum derived gasoline as a motor fuel.

The biggie there in technological terms is the last one. Now you have rewarded and entrenched a stupid course of R&D - at the real market cost of diverting attention away from intelligent research into far more appropriate fuels and BEHAVIOUR. I have to keep coming back to the real issue: it is not that we don't have enough energy to survive, it is that we live a lifestyle focused on wasting a very finite resource at an every-increasing rate. Partisan politics lives in a world with a four year view to survival. We as a nation and a species need things done that reflect our need to survive beyond the pork barrel.
 
That's President Barack Obama. Now, I understand the desire to research alternative forms of energy and I don't even completely feel like we shouldn't be investing some in it as a country. However, if we're facing "thousands of teachers" losing jobs, children losing health coverage, air traffic controllers unable to work, hold illegal immigrants for deportation, deploy our military assets, or pass significant furloughs wouldn't the FAR more prudent thing to do with that 200 million be to funnel it to one of those things we're being told is catastrophic to the wellbeing of the country rather than investing it into technology that may or may not help us anytime in the near future or ever? I mean, if Barack Obama's doomcrying was honest and not just rhetoric of a typical politician...but he'd never do that, because he is a "Change from politics as usual"

You don't think a little bit of trimming of that $700 billion-a-year military spend could fill these gaps?
 
I think that government should wean itself off pumping money into applied research - which distorts markets and scientific priorities.

OK, let's say, for the sake of argument, that the goal is worthy and the method is appropriate.

But why on earth "stimulate" this sort of research now, when every major automaker is already in, and had made massive commitments to exactly this sort of R&D? Nissan alone had spent $5.6B on developing Leaf, by 2011 - according to Ghosn. Whether the concept will fly or flop, it seems to be well beyond the phase when this kind of spending could make (in theory) real difference.

I understand that our Fearless Leader needs to placate his "green" fans, but if I were a sincere socialist, I would rather be asking: At what point should we start phasing out the $7,500 income tax credit that faciliates transfers of money from the rich people buying expensive electric vehicles to the international megacorporations? (Not being versed in the left-wing folklore, I am not sure how evil Renault-Nissan is supposed to be).
 
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I'm well aware of synthetic oil. But you do know it still uses petroleum, right?
Even if we look at bio-fuels, if they are produced by cultivation, the petroleum and other energy input is still considerable.
 
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None of those took 50 years of funding with nothing to show for it.

You have a point... The Internet took 35 years, not 50, from inception to commercial viability. Nuclear energy traces it roots to the early 1930s, and we could have quite an argument as to whether it is yet commercially viable (the results are mixed).
 
Not exactly sure I know what you mean here. :confused:

It has a relatively low EROEI (energy returned on energy invested), and beyond that, the petroleum (as the energy that is invested) is particularly crucial in the production of ethanol. It's a dead-on-arrival idea.
 
It has a relatively low EROEI (energy returned on energy invested), and beyond that, the petroleum (as the energy that is invested) is particularly crucial in the production of ethanol. It's a dead-on-arrival idea.

Thanks... that's what I has guessed.
 
Was it private investors alone that developed nuclear energy, or the internet, or petro fuels for that matter?

Nuclear energy and the internet? No. Petro-fuels? Yes.
 
This is a step in the right direction. However, it is going to be slow. We should do more now as well. For example, place restrictions on SUVs. If you want to drive a SUV, you should be able to show why you need it. At the very least, tax SUV drivers exponentially more.

Which is utterly idiotic. The whole point here is to come up with a replacement fuel that works as well or better than what we have. Having to restrict and limit what we can currently do is not an improvement. Until we have a replacement fuel that allows us to do everything we can do today, at a price that is significantly lower and hopefully less polluting, then the whole process is a failure.
 
Yeah, just like the railroads cornered the market on air transport and the stage lines on bus traffic... Yes, and of course there is always Xerox Acrobat for document management... and wasn't Texas Instrument originally a slide rule company before they become the dominate player in electronic spreadsheets?

You are missing the fatal flaw of Adam Smith. We do not have a pure free enterprise economy... far from it. Monopolies and Oligopolies are not all that efficient. Their only interest, typically, is in protecting their monopoly. It is much more cost effective for the oil companies to wage a PR and lobby campaign against the idea of government involvement in cultivating alternative energy sources than to actually participate in the research. No point in spending money just to cut your own grass.

None of that makes any sense, but who cares...right? it sure does sound good.
 
So your theory is that if it wasn't developed in the 1970's that it doesn't need to be developed? Ha!

No, but that was a nice twist to avoid the fact that those techs were are already developed and ready for market. The market just hasn't shown much interest in losing money on those techs.
 
Was it private investors alone that developed nuclear energy, or the internet, or petro fuels for that matter?

Probably no on the first, yes on the second and third.
 
The internet wasn't developed to be the internet, but a communications network for the military. I see someone mentioned military budget cuts as a suggestion. Probably would have cut that too back then, right? But the internet itself didn't reach the public eye until the web was born (91), after and including that it was ALL private investment.
 
Seems to me the cities, counties, and states could save a huge bundle by requiring all toilets be like this:

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We could eventually reduce and the rid ourselves of the need to build and maintain public septic systems and would preserve a ton of water. The tech is ready and sold now without subsidization.

Back in the 70s all the ones in my uncle's house were like this only propane powered instead of electricity. Easiest to use and clean, but the propane place that carried them couldn't seem to make the sales - people were afraid of explosions and missed the flush. Couldn't find them for a number of years, but here they are again in electric form.
 
You have a point... The Internet took 35 years, not 50, from inception to commercial viability. Nuclear energy traces it roots to the early 1930s, and we could have quite an argument as to whether it is yet commercially viable (the results are mixed).

No, the technology which lead to the internet was developed in the 60s. Telenet was commercially viable in 1974 was was quite widely used from its inception.

And we aren't going to get into a debate about nuclear because like you said, it would be quite an argument. All I will say is this, renewable energy sources receive 5 times more dollars per kilowatt hours generated in subsidies then nuclear does.

Which Energy Source Receives the Largest Subsidy? | Clearing the Air | NCPA.org
 
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