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Thread: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    According to the far right only.
    According to anyone without an agenda.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The government doesn't give money to the oil companies and oil companies don't get any special tax breaks. They're allowed the same tax deductions that any other business is allowed.
    "The rationale for this loophole is that it encourages exploration for new oil-presumably something no oil company would otherwise do. Oil industry executives argue that other businesses are allowed to depreciate the costs of their manufacturing investments. That's true, but they're only allowed to take off the actual cost of those assets, not deduct 15% of their gross income virtually forever.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post


    When we give a tax break we are voluntarily reducing our income. If you wish to call it elimination of a tax break instead of eliminating a subsidy, so be it.

    Its one of those tomato/tomato semantics arguments.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    According to anyone without an agenda.
    Yeah, the agenda for a stronger economy.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We are still funding nuclear energy, the internet, and the petro companies. And what do you mean nothing to show for it?

    "Arizona has the potential within 30 years to not only produce enough clean energy to meet the electricity needs of every resident and business within the state, but to also export this energy throughout the nation, without using any fossil fuels.

    How do we do this? By adapting an Arizona Clean Energy Vision that maintains current levels of nuclear and hyrdroelectric generation while expanding the use of solar and wind technologies. Enactment of this vision holds the promise for true transformation of our environment and economy.

    The Arizona Clean Energy Vision is based on a balanced energy portfolio that by 2040 would comprise 79 percent solar, 14 percent wind, 4 percent hydroelectric and 3 percent nuclear.

    This formula would create sustainable jobs, attract new high-wage industries, and make the state a more attractive place to live, work and visit.

    It would also greatly reduce demand for water resources because clean-energy production requires vastly less water than energy produced from fossil fuel.

    Arizona obtains about two gigawatts of its electrical power from nuclear generation and three gigawatts from hydroelectric generation. While these would remain constant, wind and solar energy would increase significantly."
    Wind and solar, plus hydro and nuclear power, will fuel clean-energy future
    There's so much off about that. First, anyone who thinks that oil is not a necessary part of solar and wind generation (AND transmission) is seriously fooling themselves. Second, hydro is not an alternative in this context, it was around long before oil dependence. If we could satisfy the nation's need for electricity from hydro alone, or in conjunction with other so-called alternatives at the same cost as using coal and oil, we would. But hydro is not just restricted by having the presense of water but also by our insistence that fish and recreation be preserved.

    Also, counting upon the hydro generation to remain the same is a fool's errand in Arizona. More people every day, more usage and more rationing. The Colorado is strained and it's only going to get worse.

    I like that Arizona is looking to generate locally, that's how it should be. In fact, I think all counties in Arizona should roll the requiement of solar into their new building regs. It fits the location.

    But really, with electricity generation we're not talking about a substitute for oil per se, but coal, right? And we have an abundant source for that here without foreign dependence.

    Replacing oil use in vehicles is a whole 'nother ball of wax. Oil usage for vehicles is not restricted to the fuel, but virtually every other piece and part. Researching fuel replacement alone, again, has already been done and the solutions are fully finished and usable right now. No need to reinvent the wheel and pay for it again.
    Last edited by clownboy; 03-18-13 at 04:20 PM.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    When we give a tax break we are voluntarily reducing our income. If you wish to call it elimination of a tax break instead of eliminating a subsidy, so be it.

    Its one of those tomato/tomato semantics arguments.
    No, its a mistake on your part. A subsidy is a transfer of currency from from one party to another to in order to lower a cost. The oil depletion allowance does not do this. Its no more accurate than calling the mortgage interest deduction a subsidy.

    In fact, it would be more accurate to say that the oil companies subsidize the govt since the taxes they pay more than cover the services they receive in return. The funny thing is, we agree they should be done away with. I simply see no need to make it sounds worse in order to mislead people.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    There's so much off about that. First, anyone who thinks that oil is not a necessary part of solar and wind generation (AND transmission) is seriously fooling themselves.
    Have you really never considered that if we reduce the amount of oil used for energy there is more of it left for other purposes?

    Second, hydro is not an alternative in this context, it was around long before oil dependence. If we could satisfy the nation's need for electricity from hydro alone, or in conjunction with other so-called alternatives at the same cost as using coal and oil, we would.
    We get closer to that point each day the cost of solar, wind, and nuclear go down and the price of oil goes up due to world supply/demand.

    I like that Arizona is looking to generate locally, that's how it should be. In fact, I think all counties in Arizona should roll the requiement of solar into their new building regs. It fits the location.
    Can't argue with that!

    But really, with electricity generation we're not talking about a substitute for oil per se, but coal, right? And we have an abundant sdource for that here without foreign dependence.

    Replacing oil use in vehicles is a whole 'nother ball of wax. Oil usage for vehicles is not restricted to the fuel, but virtually every other piece and part. Researching fuerl replacement alone, again, has already been done and the solutions are fully finished and usable right now. No need to reinvent the wheel and pay for it again.

    Electric cars can meet the needs of most commuters.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by jonny5 View Post
    No, its a mistake on your part. A subsidy is a transfer of currency from from one party to another to in order to lower a cost. The oil depletion allowance does not do this. Its no more accurate than calling the mortgage interest deduction a subsidy.

    In fact, it would be more accurate to say that the oil companies subsidize the govt since the taxes they pay more than cover the services they receive in return. The funny thing is, we agree they should be done away with. I simply see no need to make it sounds worse in order to mislead people.

    Thanks for providing the libertarian perspective!
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    "The rationale for this loophole is that it encourages exploration for new oil-presumably something no oil company would otherwise do. Oil industry executives argue that other businesses are allowed to depreciate the costs of their manufacturing investments. That's true, but they're only allowed to take off the actual cost of those assets, not deduct 15% of their gross income virtually forever.
    Also from your source:

    It lets them deduct 70% of the cost of setting up a drilling operation in the year those expenses occur, rather than having to depreciate them over the expected life of the well. The other 30% they can take off over the next five years. This boondoggle costs us about $500 million a year.
    Which basically means, oil companies are allowed to deduct business expenses, just like every other business in this country.

    By your logic, ALL businesses receive government subsidies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Have you really never considered that if we reduce the amount of oil used for energy there is more of it left for other purposes?
    Certainly, but again, fuel oil for large electricity generation is not common in most places (maybe some places in Alaska).

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We get closer to that point each day the cost of solar, wind, and nuclear go down and the price of oil goes up due to world supply/demand.
    As the price of oil rises so does the price of those alternatives. Care to guess what their parts and components are made using? That's right, oil (and a whole bunch of other finite supply rare earth materials). The only thing that would make the alternatives a replacement for carbon (coal, not oil, in this case) are significant improvements in the two weak sisters of our eletrical systems - transmission (we lose 47% of the electricity we generate in the transmission) and storage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Electric cars can meet the needs of most commuters.
    Trading one woe for others. You're not saving oil in the generation here, but in the fuel where an electric car replaced a petro-based fuel car. We already try that with buses and commuter trains. Only solves a small part of the problem as you can see.

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