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Thread: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Reality is that we currently have relatively abundant fossil fuels. What I'm talking about is a future reality in which fossil fuels are not abundant.
    We've known that since Nixon was president. What is your point?


    What you seem to be talking about is a fantasy.
    If it were fantasy our usage of solar, wind, hydroelectric and nuclear power would not be increasing each year.



    And no energy exists which feeds 8+ billion people on electrical currents from alternative energy sources.
    You severely underestimate, the power of the sun, wind, water, and the atom. We continue to transition to non fossil fuel sources of energy.

    Our agricultural methods collapse without fossil fuels.
    Good reason not to waste them on transportation.


    Global freight screeches to a halt. Many billions of people cannot be sustained in a world without abundant fossil fuels. Investing in a fantasy doesn't make the fantasy a reality.
    Your reality is the fantasy and one not share by very many people.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We've known that since Nixon was president. What is your point?
    My point is you aren't grasping mine.

    If it were fantasy our usage of solar, wind, hydroelectric and nuclear power would not be increasing each year.
    That it is increasing each year fails miserably to show that 8+ billion people can be sustained on it.

    You severely underestimate, the power of the sun, wind, water, and the atom. We continue to transition to non fossil fuel sources of energy.
    I've repeated it over and over again and you (and others) fail to even begin to comprehend. There is no source of energy with an EROEI that can possibly replace what fossil fuels do for us. The EROEI is too low, and the storage issue is insurmountable insofar as operating large machinery is concerned. EROEI, agriculture, global freight, and energy storage... these alternatives are cool but they do not show anywhere near the amount of promise we would need them to if we expected to keep growing in an age of oil decline.

    Good reason not to waste them on transportation.
    Too late. We would have had to grasp that and do something about it decades ago. We have never cared about the future as much as we have cared about ourselves. That was true 50 years ago and it's true today.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    My point is you aren't grasping mine.
    Let's hear it?



    That it is increasing each year fails miserably to show that 8+ billion people can be sustained on it.
    That depends on whether we continue to sit on our asses as we done since we passed peak oil in this country in 1971,



    I've repeated it over and over again and you (and others) fail to even begin to comprehend. There is no source of energy with an EROEI that can possibly replace what fossil fuels do for us. The EROEI is too low, and the storage issue is insurmountable insofar as operating large machinery is concerned. EROEI, agriculture, global freight, and energy storage... these alternatives are cool but they do not show anywhere near the amount of promise we would need them to if we expected to keep growing in an age of oil decline. Too late. We would have had to grasp that and do something about it decades ago. We have never cared about the future as much as we have cared about ourselves. That was true 50 years ago and it's true today.

    If we transition transportation to electric, already feasible, there is enough oil for other uses, at least until we find alternatives for those uses. Do you deny that man was able to live before he started burning fossil fuels?
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    If we transition transportation to electric, already feasible, there is enough oil for other uses, at least until we find alternatives for those uses.
    Do your research and show us where it's feasible to transition the world's transportation to electric. You won't be able to show this.

    Do you deny that man was able to live before he started burning fossil fuels?
    Obviously not. Do you know what the world's population was before we started burning fossil fuels to get our needs met? My hypothesis is that our population will have to regress to somewhere closer to that level when we regress to life without fossil fuels. There exists nothing that disproves this hypothesis.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Do your research and show us where it's feasible to transition the world's transportation to electric. You won't be able to show this.
    Easy:

    "45% of all oil used in the U.S. goes to gasoline, which means we consume in excess of 180 million gallons of gasoline a day."

    Top 16 uses of petroleum

    "The average United States driver travels 29 miles per day and is driving a total of 55 minutes per day. (This is an average vehicle speed of 32 mph.) US Department of Transportation, Bureau of Transportation Statistics"

    Transportation Fact Sheet | Ride To Work::

    "The majority of battery powered cars that are available today have a range of between 40 miles (65km) and 100 miles (160km), which is far more than most people travel on a regular basis."

    Electric Car Range | What is the range of an electric car?



    Obviously not. Do you know what the world's population was before we started burning fossil fuels to get our needs met? My hypothesis is that our population will have to regress to somewhere closer to that level when we regress to life without fossil fuels. There exists nothing that disproves this hypothesis.
    I use less than half the oil I did 30 years ago without having to live in a cave, which proves your hypothesis wrong.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    You don't think a little bit of trimming of that $700 billion-a-year military spend could fill these gaps?
    What gives you that ludicrous idea? And what does that have to do with the notion that Obama stated all these cataclysmic things that would happen due to sequestration, and then turns around to propose money go to something other than those things?

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Meanwhile US gasoline consumption continues to decline and our "old" refineries are more than sufficient to supply our needs and still EXPORT 400,000 barrels a day of refined gasoline. Your point is?
    Simply to correct the complete missinformation provided. No need to imagine that Big Oil wakes up in the morning and runs its world based on how much the don't make on gasoline (they do reasonably well in a very competitive market) nor how much accelerated depreciation contributes to their bottom line (which is absolutely zero in the long term).

    US gasoline consumption is declining for two reasons: CAFE standards both present and proposed and financial disaster thanks to total idiocy in Washington going back several administrations. Go shopping for a genav airplane right now, and you will find you can buy a light twin with big engines for absolute peanuts - and there are nearly a thousand for sale.

    The US market at this time wants better energy efficiency - but it wants to do so without curbing its massive apetite (actually, I believe Canada leads the US as the greatest wasters of energy on the planet per capita) for cheap energy. That day has to come to an end, and sooner is far better than later, but the mindset here is still to feel entitled to be able to squander resources as fast as the total cash and credit available can pay for them. That is why the discussion even in this thread is all about how to get the COST of energy down, rather than the real issue which is how to get the CONSUMPTION of energy to decline dramatically.

    The O-Bummer proposals are targeted at elections, not sustainable economic and ecological efforts. I guess that is my point.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    Were you really unaware we give the oil companies a $41 billion dollar subsidy each year?

    Budget hawks: Does US need to give gas and oil companies $41 billion a year? - CSMonitor.com
    Cat: I have heard this and many other numbers many times, and I have made a genuine effort to FIND these subsidies, but, for the most part, they do not exist. This is the distortion of reality from the CS Monitor (for what reason I can't imagine) as well as dozens of other sources that do not realize the difference between accelerated depreciation and subsidy. With the government sticking its nose so deeply into EVERY business and market (which is my complaint) there are no doubt some of the hundreds of billions of subsidies that end up in Big Oil's pockets directly or indirectly (for example, US direct cash farm susbisidies at nearly 80% of Canada's gross domestic ag product no doubt result in use of more petro in intense ag production), but for the most part, nobody is cutting a cheque nor forgiving taxation (as opposed to delaying) for normal business activities.

    If you can cite any exceptions to that, I would appreciate knowing and learning.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Do your research and show us where it's feasible to transition the world's transportation to electric. You won't be able to show this.
    You are absolutely correct in assuming that the world of trade today is designed around petro energy that is far, far too cheap - and thus wasted at an astounding rate. Once this particular free ride is over, there will still be trade and transport, but it will not look anything like what we have today, nor be any where near as cheap, but it will be there. My guess is wind powered with heat engine assist.

    Do you know what the world's population was before we started burning fossil fuels to get our needs met? My hypothesis is that our population will have to regress to somewhere closer to that level when we regress to life without fossil fuels. There exists nothing that disproves this hypothesis.
    Again you hit that nail fairly head on. I might point out that it will be BOTH population and lifestyle that must take a hit.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    We are still funding nuclear energy, the internet, and the petro companies. And what do you mean nothing to show for it?

    "Arizona has the potential within 30 years to not only produce enough clean energy to meet the electricity needs of every resident and business within the state, but to also export this energy throughout the nation, without using any fossil fuels.

    How do we do this? By adapting an Arizona Clean Energy Vision that maintains current levels of nuclear and hyrdroelectric generation while expanding the use of solar and wind technologies. Enactment of this vision holds the promise for true transformation of our environment and economy.

    The Arizona Clean Energy Vision is based on a balanced energy portfolio that by 2040 would comprise 79 percent solar, 14 percent wind, 4 percent hydroelectric and 3 percent nuclear.

    This formula would create sustainable jobs, attract new high-wage industries, and make the state a more attractive place to live, work and visit.

    It would also greatly reduce demand for water resources because clean-energy production requires vastly less water than energy produced from fossil fuel.

    Arizona obtains about two gigawatts of its electrical power from nuclear generation and three gigawatts from hydroelectric generation. While these would remain constant, wind and solar energy would increase significantly."
    Wind and solar, plus hydro and nuclear power, will fuel clean-energy future
    And how much would that cost? How much land will it take up? Not every place in the country is a ****ing desert with unlimited space for those sort of things.

    Nuclear would produce the same energy capacity for 1/100th of the amount of land. Fact is, wind and solar are inferior energy sources.

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