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Thread: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Shouldn't matter, since--according to all the libbis--supply and demand doesn't appky to gas prices.
    One barrel (42 gallons) of crude oil only produces 19 gallons of gasoline. The cost of oil per barrel is currently $109. The average cost of gasoline per gallon, minus average state, local, and federal taxes, is $3.36. So, an oil company gets $63.84 for a barrel of oil that cost them $109 and that isn't even subtracting the costs of transporting the oil, refining it, distributing it, and all of the labor involved. Producing gasoline isn't even remotely profitable for an oil company unless the government is paying for it, but, fortunately there are other things they produce with it (plastics, petrochemicals, etc). Supply and demand doesn't matter in this case because no businessman in their right mind would spend well over $109 for a product people will only pay $63.84 for, no matter how abundant it is or how many people want it. If people want to complain about the cost of alternative fuels then they should bear in mind the fact that the only thing standing between gasoline production and the economic abyss is a package of $15.6 billion in government subsidies. The oil companies wouldn't even bother with it because it isn't profitable.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Thanks... that's what I has guessed.
    My bad, I should have explained myself a bit. thanks to Malthus for doing so.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    LEMONT, Ill. President Barack Obama is pushing Congress to authorize $200 million a year for research into clean energy technologies that can wean automobiles off oil.

    Obama proposed the idea of an energy security trust last month in his State of the Union address, but he was putting a price tag on the idea during a trip Friday to the Argonne National Laboratory outside Chicago $2 billion over 10 years. The White House said the research would be paid for with revenue from federal oil and gas leases on offshore drilling and would not add to the deficit.

    The money would fund research on "breakthrough" technologies such as batteries for electric cars and biofuels made from switch grass or other materials. Researchers also would look to improve use of natural gas as a fuel for cars and trucks.

    White House officials said the president's proposal would not require expansion of drilling to federal lands or water where it is now prohibited. Instead, they are counting on increased production from existing sites, along with efficiencies from an administration plan to streamline drilling permits. The government collects more than $6 billion a year in royalties from production on federal lands and waters.

    Obama's push for the energy trust came as the Environmental Protection Agency released a new report Friday indicating that fuel economy standards rose last year by 1.4 miles per gallon the largest annual increase since EPA started keeping track. The agency said the improvement was due to better availability of high-performing cars and more options for consumers.

    The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers suggested that rather than encouraging research on fuel-efficient cars, the government should focus on making diverse fuels more available and improving transportation infrastructure.

    Argonne is one of the Energy Department's largest national laboratories for scientific and engineering research, staffed by more than 1,250 scientists and engineers. White House officials said it was chosen as the site of the president's speech because of its tradition of research into vehicle technologies.....snip~

    Obama wants research to wean vehicles off oil - Americas - Stripes
    By MATTHEW DALY and NEDRA PICKLER The Associated Press <<<<<More here!

    We did hear Obama say about taking care of infrastructure. So why isn't he listening to the Alliance of Auto Manufacturers on that point. I don't have a problem with Government State, local, and Fed, moving their Vehicles to natural gas. Anybody else? Thoughts?
    Obama is an epic idiot. May as well power cars with nuclear cell reactors.

    It wouldn't shock me if the dunce started talking about developing free energy.

    He's just promoting industries..

    "Show me the the money and the votes and I'll show you federal contracts and the destruction of your rivals"

    It's like the old AC/DC argument - Obamafool is trying to electrocute and elephant... (of course progressives think I'm talking about 70's rock music).

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Napoleon View Post
    One barrel (42 gallons) of crude oil only produces 19 gallons of gasoline. The cost of oil per barrel is currently $109. The average cost of gasoline per gallon, minus average state, local, and federal taxes, is $3.36. So, an oil company gets $63.84 for a barrel of oil that cost them $109 and that isn't even subtracting the costs of transporting the oil, refining it, distributing it, and all of the labor involved. Producing gasoline isn't even remotely profitable for an oil company unless the government is paying for it, but, fortunately there are other things they produce with it (plastics, petrochemicals, etc). Supply and demand doesn't matter in this case because no businessman in their right mind would spend well over $109 for a product people will only pay $63.84 for, no matter how abundant it is or how many people want it. If people want to complain about the cost of alternative fuels then they should bear in mind the fact that the only thing standing between gasoline production and the economic abyss is a package of $15.6 billion in government subsidies. The oil companies wouldn't even bother with it because it isn't profitable.
    there are just so many errors in this post, sorry I have to point that out.

    First of all, where do you get $109 a barrel from??? BRENT crude is $109 today, and very few American refiners would buy any crude referenced to Brent at market when they could pay the NYMEX price for WTI from a trader of $93. Reality is, most refineries buy from mid stream buyers or at the wellhead, where crude is discounted anywhere from a few dollars to $30 (this month's posted for WY heavy sour is $62 at the wellhead) or even more (for Alberta dilbit for instance). You got your input costs way wrong.

    Secondly: there is no fixed relationship between how much gasoline comes from a barrel. Different crudes have different yields from simple refineries, and more modern refineries with a high Nelsen index (of complexity) can make what market demands from almost any feedstock. In fact, with all of the crackate, reformate and alkylates in reflux, you can end up with MORE than 42 gals of product from a barrel of crude. Gasoline is also hardly the only product from a refinery.

    $15 Bn would be not even a drop in the bucket when you consider that the US uses 19million barrels PER DAY of petroleum products, or 6.9 BILLION barrels per year worth nearly $1 TRILLION per year. IF thee was such a "subsidy", it would amount to 1.5%. However, this number that is tossed around with no reference is for ACCELERATED DEPRECIATION on capital projects and equipment. It doesn't SAVE the oil companies a penny as the depreciation period is just made shorter. There is no direct "subsidy". Even to gain the advantage of the accelerated depreciation, they have to SPEND the money in capital equipment and projects to gain that.

    So, all that in mind: oil companies do indeed make money selling gasoline - even without any government subsidies. But, it no easy way to earn a buck. You might have noticed that there hasn't been a new refinery built since 1976, the ones that exist have been very extensively upgraded to meet modern emissions requirements for the plants themselves and the fuels that they make, and the ones on the East coast that once used Brent indexed crudes (when the price was similar to US oil) are now closing left and right.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    EROEI. Research can improve that marginally.

    We can't run the global economy and feed 8+ billion people on alternative forms energy charged into batteries, any better than one could be a body-builder eating nothing but celery. Yes, there are calories in celery. No, an elite athlete cannot sustain on it. It's folly.
    That's simply your opinion, and it doesn't stand up to reality. We are supplying more of our energy everyday from the sun, wind, hydroelectric, and nuclear power.
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Catawba View Post
    That's simply your opinion, and it doesn't stand up to reality.
    Reality is that we currently have relatively abundant fossil fuels. What I'm talking about is a future reality in which fossil fuels are not abundant. What you seem to be talking about is a fantasy.

    We are supplying more of our energy everyday from the sun, wind, hydroelectric, and nuclear power.
    And no energy exists which feeds 8+ billion people on electrical currents from alternative energy sources.

    Our agricultural methods collapse without fossil fuels. Global freight screeches to a halt. Many billions of people cannot be sustained in a world without abundant fossil fuels. Investing in a fantasy doesn't make the fantasy a reality.

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by ReformCollege View Post
    O

    None of those took 50 years of funding with nothing to show for it.
    We are still funding nuclear energy, the internet, and the petro companies. And what do you mean nothing to show for it?

    "Arizona has the potential within 30 years to not only produce enough clean energy to meet the electricity needs of every resident and business within the state, but to also export this energy throughout the nation, without using any fossil fuels.

    How do we do this? By adapting an Arizona Clean Energy Vision that maintains current levels of nuclear and hyrdroelectric generation while expanding the use of solar and wind technologies. Enactment of this vision holds the promise for true transformation of our environment and economy.

    The Arizona Clean Energy Vision is based on a balanced energy portfolio that by 2040 would comprise 79 percent solar, 14 percent wind, 4 percent hydroelectric and 3 percent nuclear.

    This formula would create sustainable jobs, attract new high-wage industries, and make the state a more attractive place to live, work and visit.

    It would also greatly reduce demand for water resources because clean-energy production requires vastly less water than energy produced from fossil fuel.

    Arizona obtains about two gigawatts of its electrical power from nuclear generation and three gigawatts from hydroelectric generation. While these would remain constant, wind and solar energy would increase significantly."
    Wind and solar, plus hydro and nuclear power, will fuel clean-energy future
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Why not pay down the deficit with that $2 billion?
    When i hear these types of claims i cannot think back to the hypocrisy when the left wants to raise taxes.. You know the whole line "only it only brings in 'x' amount, thats not even close to enough"


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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Nuclear energy and the internet? No. Petro-fuels? Yes.

    Were you really unaware we give the oil companies a $41 billion dollar subsidy each year?

    Budget hawks: Does US need to give gas and oil companies $41 billion a year? - CSMonitor.com
    Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children. ~ Ancient American Indian Proverb

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    Re: Obama Wants Research to Wean Vehicles off Oil.....

    Quote Originally Posted by cannuck View Post
    there are just so many errors in this post, sorry I have to point that out.

    First of all, where do you get $109 a barrel from??? BRENT crude is $109 today, and very few American refiners would buy any crude referenced to Brent at market when they could pay the NYMEX price for WTI from a trader of $93. Reality is, most refineries buy from mid stream buyers or at the wellhead, where crude is discounted anywhere from a few dollars to $30 (this month's posted for WY heavy sour is $62 at the wellhead) or even more (for Alberta dilbit for instance). You got your input costs way wrong.

    Secondly: there is no fixed relationship between how much gasoline comes from a barrel. Different crudes have different yields from simple refineries, and more modern refineries with a high Nelsen index (of complexity) can make what market demands from almost any feedstock. In fact, with all of the crackate, reformate and alkylates in reflux, you can end up with MORE than 42 gals of product from a barrel of crude. Gasoline is also hardly the only product from a refinery.

    $15 Bn would be not even a drop in the bucket when you consider that the US uses 19million barrels PER DAY of petroleum products, or 6.9 BILLION barrels per year worth nearly $1 TRILLION per year. IF thee was such a "subsidy", it would amount to 1.5%. However, this number that is tossed around with no reference is for ACCELERATED DEPRECIATION on capital projects and equipment. It doesn't SAVE the oil companies a penny as the depreciation period is just made shorter. There is no direct "subsidy". Even to gain the advantage of the accelerated depreciation, they have to SPEND the money in capital equipment and projects to gain that.

    So, all that in mind: oil companies do indeed make money selling gasoline - even without any government subsidies. But, it no easy way to earn a buck. You might have noticed that there hasn't been a new refinery built since 1976, the ones that exist have been very extensively upgraded to meet modern emissions requirements for the plants themselves and the fuels that they make, and the ones on the East coast that once used Brent indexed crudes (when the price was similar to US oil) are now closing left and right.
    Meanwhile US gasoline consumption continues to decline and our "old" refineries are more than sufficient to supply our needs and still EXPORT 400,000 barrels a day of refined gasoline. Your point is?

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