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Thread: GOP senator reverses gay-marriage stance after son comes out

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    Re: GOP senator reverses gay-marriage stance after son comes out

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    In my experience most people make their decisions about questions like this based on personal experiences and relationships. Beyond the absolutism of forums like this, that's how real life is lived.
    And shouldn't we hold ourselves (and especially our leaders) to a higher standard than that? Should we permit discrimination and suffering merely because it doesn't affect us or those close to us? Of course not. That's why we're not barbarians.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: GOP senator reverses gay-marriage stance after son comes out

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    And shouldn't we hold ourselves (and especially our leaders) to a higher standard than that? Should we permit discrimination and suffering merely because it doesn't affect us or those close to us? Of course not. That's why we're not barbarians.
    On personal morality questions like this, no, we should not demand or expect better than we do ourselves. Whether a given view promotes "discrimination and suffering" or "sound morals and justice" is completely in the eye of the beholder. We're not barbarians because we tolerate both views, not because we rush to impose one or the other.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: GOP senator reverses gay-marriage stance after son comes out

    My opinion is that politicians should be able to empathize with everyone, not just their friends, business associates and family, as a requirement for the job. The inability to empathize with others causes many political problems and unnecessary disputes.

    His change of heart shows the value of coming out to the people around you, since many people can't empathize well with outsiders. To oppose discrimination and oppression, other wrongly demonized people should also "come out," including unpopular religions, responsible recreational drug users and alternative sex practioners.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 03-16-13 at 04:33 PM.

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    Re: GOP senator reverses gay-marriage stance after son comes out

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I also love the sanctimony on this thread, as if everyone here hasn't had some moment in their life where something happened to you or people around you and that caused you to reevaluate some view/thought/action/idea/etc. Bitching about that is bitching about the human experience and how people function. New experiences present new information and cause the brain to look at whatever is before them in a different way and react to it going forward using that new information.
    True.

    But...

    Some people, more than others, have learned to see other people as they would see their friends, family and associates...as human beings worthy of basic respect with differing ways of expressing the same basic needs and desires. Those people should be our political leaders.

    Based on the polls showing changed views on gay marriage within the last couple of years, this quality is lacking amongst the public also. It took a critical mass of out gay people and their friends and families to convince the majority of the public that gays are actually people also.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 03-16-13 at 04:46 PM.

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    Re: GOP senator reverses gay-marriage stance after son comes out

    Quote Originally Posted by Perotista View Post
    I think that goes without saying. Gay marriage is illegal in my home state of Georgia, but legal in Iowa. If a gay couple travels to Iowa to get married and brings back the marriage certificate, both the federal government and the state of Georgia must recognize that certificate the same as any heterosexual marriage certificate from another state. Failure to do so would bring in Section 1 and 2 of Article IV of the constitution.
    The Defense of Marriage Act says otherwise. I hope the Supreme Court agrees with you.

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    Re: GOP senator reverses gay-marriage stance after son comes out

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    States should not get to recognize who can and can't get married. What is Mississippi decides that blacks and whites shouldn't marry? Yeah. No thanks. It's a federal institution for a good reason.
    Marriage is not a federal instittion, but it does impact taxes and benefits that the feds administer. The Supreme Court invalidated anti-miscegenation laws in 1967 based on federally recognized individual civil rights, not because it is the federal govenment's role to handle marriage laws in general.

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    Re: GOP senator reverses gay-marriage stance after son comes out

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    So you're trying to suggest that voters in one of the most liberal states in the United States can be bought off by people in Utah?

    If that's true, California is in worse shape than it appears. However, it may explain how it got in the shape it is.

    Of course, the SCOTUS didn't invalidate anything I wrote. It may invalidate the results, but it can't invalidate the votes.

    Try to keep it real.
    California is not as liberal as reputed. It is has had Republican governors quite recently.

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    Re: GOP senator reverses gay-marriage stance after son comes out

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    And I've stated twice now why that is a terrible idea. States within a federal body shouldn't get to decide who is married and who isn't. It should be a standard law for all living under the same political entity.
    Currently the states determine the ages when you can marry, whether blood tests are required and other details. Other states and the feds are required to recognize out of state marriages per the constitition. The Defense of Marriage Act created an exception to that principal, by exempting only gay marriages from the requirement that all marriages be recognized across states and by the feds.

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    Re: GOP senator reverses gay-marriage stance after son comes out

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I see you've reverted to form, as most good liberals do, and started throwing the personal insults around - "if you don't agree with me, you're a moron" - that always adds a great level of value to an adult conversation - congrats!
    Actually, I said if you don't agree with yourself you are a moron. You see, if you follow a path you figure out is wrong and continue to be wrong then yes you are a moron. granted this is an area of personal value judgements, but if you look at it the person in question discovered he felt that his old stance was wrong. It is a pretty common thing for people to take up an idea regarding theology and philosophy and to change their mind when they experience something that shows them to be incorrect. he came to that conclusion, and if he had continued diown the wrong path because he was goosestepping with the others then yes that would be a moronic thing to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Secondly, not sure where you got the idea I'm a shill for the Republican Party - since I'm Canadian, as you pointed out in another of your typical liberal ploys - the xenophobic dismissal - I'm not eligible to be a member of that party, even if I chose to do so - I actually consider myself a conservative so wouldn't be a Republican even if I could so save your rant against Republicans for someone who cares.
    When you advertise you are conservative please don't be surprised when someone implies you are with the conservatives. It just happens you also tend to argue sonme conservative points, despite not having the ability to participate fully in the US system. It seems obvious canada has it's own conservative people. I can understand your desire to not be associated with the US party turning itself into a bigger and bigger joke, but you do go out of your way to support them in ideas.
    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Finally, in your zeal to criticize and dismiss my comments, you failed to comprehend what I said - I didn't once criticize Senator Portman's change of heart - I actually feel he was wrong in his position prior to his change of heart, since I don't believe the government needs to have any say in the personal, private lives of its citizens. What I did say was that I believe it is wrong for a person to make a significant public policy decision solely on the basis of family circumstances.
    So what you are saying is that once he realized he was wrong he should have just continued to do the wrong thing because it would have been wrong to change his mind because of his family? I am sorry, but that sounds like a really moronic thing to do. I have to stand by my initial evaluation of someone who would do that being a moron.

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    Re: GOP senator reverses gay-marriage stance after son comes out

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    On personal morality questions like this, no, we should not demand or expect better than we do ourselves. Whether a given view promotes "discrimination and suffering" or "sound morals and justice" is completely in the eye of the beholder. We're not barbarians because we tolerate both views, not because we rush to impose one or the other.
    Correct. But exactly how should this person who "changed their mind" about gay marriage be viewed ? He was an enthusiastic, if not gungho, opponent of gay marriage before his son came out--------So, what, he had an epiphany ?.........Be against anything for no reason until it effects someone in your family, then abruptly shift gears ?..............Conservatives think conservatives don't have gay kids ?....................

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