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Thread: Food-stamp use doubles

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    You are starting from the wrong point in time, when LBJ got the program rolling in 1964 we had as a nation been seeing the poverty rate reaching levels of over 20%, as recently as the 1950's. Since then the rate has "remained between 11 and 15.2% ever since".
    Given that the the measurements of what constitutes poverty has changed over time, often for political ends, do you have any stats on the 1950's? It seems during that period that a working husband could sufficiently provide for a wife and two children, which is far more difficult in the working class of today.

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33069.pdf

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Given that the the measurements of what constitutes poverty has changed over time, often for political ends, do you have any stats on the 1950's?
    http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf

    It seems during that period that a working husband could sufficiently provide for a wife and two children, which is far more difficult in the working class of today.

    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33069.pdf
    You are ignoring the various income supports now in place, from SNAP to the Earn Income Credit.
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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Balance is important. Since you want to make this a 'my side'/'your side' argument, I would say that the ability to bring people out of poverty, or at least what we in this country term as such, is stagnant at best. With more focus on federal giveaways, and less on the incorporation of training to move people out of their circumstances on their own is problematic. Also, as a note the further shift of progressive governance in terms of shifting toward nationalizing private industry in this country that totals a full 1/6th of the nations GDP is worrisome. My concern is not that America will continue to be a country that boasts that anyone can make it, to more of a country of lowering all tides to achieve a static level. That's not freedom.
    Removing programs is not an effort to do anything. Demonizing poor people is not an effort. Nor is it stagnant, but instead fliud, depending on many, many factors. And training is a huge part of what the government does. Schools and on the job training is available, and the biggest cost associated with these "give aways."

    Nor is there any shift to speak of nationalizing private industry. This is largely a false claim. healthcare is more a public service and less an industry. Seeing as an industry is what has cause a large amount of the problems we see in healthcare. Health for profit is a poor model overall. Once we stop holding on the platitude and dig in it is clear to see the problems with the the current model. it hurts business by raising their costs, it promotes reactive over preventative, it rewards procedures, and leaves many unable to pay for the services.

    Acting just because you can is not always the smartest path.
    It may be the only path, smartest or not. I would argue however that in the long term, it is very dumb to hurt the worker too much. Very dumb.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The middle class is shrinking because too much wealth is going to the government rather than staying with the people. The Federal government, along with many state governments, is unaffordable. The American people are getting more services and regulations than they need or can afford.

    Were all those trillions the feds remove from the economy to remain with the people the middle class would be thriving. The poor can remain poor, the rich will remain rich and the middle will be the first to decline. It really is no secret, and there should not be any complaints or shock from the leftists. It's inevitable in any economy.

    There is a very good reason why DC and its suburbs are the most wealthy in the nation, despite there being only one resource. That would be the American taxpayer.
    I don't believe that, and I think any close look would show that isn't true. Business is doing rather well over all. They out source and lot and would even if there were not taxed at all. Overseas there is no worry about health insurance, wages are very low, and even if taxed there, they'd still come out ahead. As long as they can hire cheap labor elsewhere and not have to deal with health care, over there is more appealing. Also, no one is not investing due to taxes. Studies have been provided that show business and the wealthy do not hire nor stop hiring based on taxes. So, again, I just don't buy your premise.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimmesometruth View Post
    http://www.census.gov/prod/2010pubs/p60-238.pdf

    You are ignoring the various income supports now in place, from SNAP to the Earn Income Credit.
    Yes, which is why poverty will continue to grow, using the stats available, and the middle class will continue to shrink. Apparently they are not including the trillions in debt required to service these programs, which means they must either be dropped one day, or money will be printed until the whole thing collapses on itself. Fighting 'poverty' using their stats and methods by government handouts has never worked anywhere. The 'happy index' would be a far better indicator of how people are doing. There seems little doubt that people were happier a generation ago.

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    I don't believe that, and I think any close look would show that isn't true. Business is doing rather well over all. They out source and lot and would even if there were not taxed at all. Overseas there is no worry about health insurance, wages are very low, and even if taxed there, they'd still come out ahead. As long as they can hire cheap labor elsewhere and not have to deal with health care, over there is more appealing. Also, no one is not investing due to taxes. Studies have been provided that show business and the wealthy do not hire nor stop hiring based on taxes. So, again, I just don't buy your premise.
    OK, then there is no poverty, manageable debt, and plenty of work for everyone. That is good news.

    The next time I hear someone whining about businesses and corporations leaving the country i'll send them to you.

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Health for profit is a poor model overall.
    Actually it is the best model and motivator ever invented and is what made the Unites States the world's leader in innovation and quality health care.

    With the government gaining control of people's health neither cost nor efficiency will ever be a real factor again, and there is no reason why it should be. The money is there regardless and will be spent on an ever burgeoning bureaucracy, with less for the patients and the doctors.. But of course you won't know this until it's too late, when the theory hits the fan.

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Removing programs is not an effort to do anything.
    Who said anything about removal of programs? We in this country are a generous people. We want to help those less fortunate than ourselves, and do. But what is wrong with saying that there is a limit to that aid, and those who are able need to do what is necessary to get off the program?

    Demonizing poor people is not an effort.
    You can call a sponge a Buick, but it's not....It's a sponge.

    Nor is it stagnant, but instead fliud, depending on many, many factors.
    If so great why don't we see poverty at single digits then...I mean we have poured Trillions into it...

    And training is a huge part of what the government does.
    Yeah? Where is it?

    Schools and on the job training is available, and the biggest cost associated with these "give aways."
    Funny that we don't hear as much about that as we do the food stamp ads on the radio....Why do you suppose that is?

    Nor is there any shift to speak of nationalizing private industry.
    The healthcare industry is 1/6th of the nations GDP. You are arguing for a government based, centralized system....That is nationalization of the system friend...Like it or not.

    Seeing as an industry is what has cause a large amount of the problems we see in healthcare. Health for profit is a poor model overall.
    That's nonsense...A little less Star Trek, and a little more real world would help here... We have real world examples of what you want, and it looks dismal.

    Once we stop holding on the platitude and dig in it is clear to see the problems with the the current model.
    It isn't those of us against Obamacare that are ignoring what the rest of the worlds nationalized universal care systems are doing, that would by your side trying to feed us a steaming pile and telling us it is chocolate ice cream.

    it hurts business by raising their costs, it promotes reactive over preventative, it rewards procedures, and leaves many unable to pay for the services.
    Reigning in lawyers, and people looking to scam the system for that lotto payday because they had a headache after surgery is what is driving costs...Fix the Tort system....Obamacare doesn't touch that, why?

    It may be the only path, smartest or not. I would argue however that in the long term, it is very dumb to hurt the worker too much. Very dumb.
    We are individuals in this country...You know who else called the blue collar guy, "workers", and divided people into classes don't you?.....That's right, communists....
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    OK, then there is no poverty, manageable debt, and plenty of work for everyone. That is good news.

    The next time I hear someone whining about businesses and corporations leaving the country i'll send them to you.
    I never like it when someone deliberately misread what was said. It's a very weak tactic.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Actually it is the best model and motivator ever invented and is what made the Unites States the world's leader in innovation and quality health care.

    With the government gaining control of people's health neither cost nor efficiency will ever be a real factor again, and there is no reason why it should be. The money is there regardless and will be spent on an ever burgeoning bureaucracy, with less for the patients and the doctors.. But of course you won't know this until it's too late, when the theory hits the fan.
    No, it isn't. Mostly people accept your view of it without ever questioning, kind of a group think drenched in nationalism. But we're neither cheap nor cost effective. And it really doesn't serve patients well either, for the reasons I already noted.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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