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Thread: Food-stamp use doubles

  1. #201
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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    You seem to wish to ignore how the party is behaving to reach an end you find desirable all so you can believe you are dealing with benevolence. I'm sorry, but when you must abuse someone in order to help someone else that is not benevolence.
    What they're not realizing is that they are not actually helping anyone. Their programs only create dependency leading to an eventual entitlement and loss of productive potential...
    I don't often change my signature, but this was just too over the top to let anyone forget with what this country is up against...
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    I am for gay marriage because it ticks off Jesus freaks and social conservatives. Gays are also good voters because the vote for my side so I fight next to them.

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaPaul View Post
    What they're not realizing is that they are not actually helping anyone. Their programs only create dependency leading to an eventual entitlement and loss of productive potential...
    That is other half of the equation I brought up earlier. They think these services help people because of the existence of an immediate gain, but what they ignore is everything around it. The dependence, the lower wages and the higher profits that come about from it. They just simply ignore that all they are doing is making their life worse all so they can feel good that they gave them some food. I don't really much like when people ignore the equation so they be seen as the good guy.

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by AlabamaPaul View Post
    What they're not realizing is that they are not actually helping anyone. Their
    programs only create dependency leading to an eventual entitlement and loss of productive potential...
    And whats painfully obvious is that Democrat politicians are well aware that these programs perpetuate generaltional dependency.

    It's not like places like Cabrini Green and Robert Taylor Homes are long distant memories.

    Its the insidious nature of the left wing ideology that they are willing to essentially enslave a population in poverty, crime and violence, just to ensure a vote.

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    Those who are born into wealth tend to be progressive and call themselves Democrats. Conservatives are usually the newly wealthy and fell they earned it given the roadblocks and other deterrents that the Old Wealth (the Progressive Democrats) have put in placed to avoid newly rich people from making it. Now the Conservatives may be self driven and may not understand why others are not. Having a welfare system is the way the Old Wealth keeps the impoverished from rioting and as a means of a base of power against the New Wealth and uses the New Wealth as a scapegoat to blame for the policies and outcomes of the Old Wealth. Also, Old Wealth doesn't have the same drive as the New Wealth so they would not think it odd that someone would not necessarily have the means to get out of poverty so again Old Wealth would lean progressive and be more likely become Democrat.
    I would be interested to know where your assesment comes from. I can only speak from my personal experiencee, and those experiences have been almost 100% the opposite of what you have described. Obviously these are opinions, so it's hard to say which assesment is more accurate. I don't have any statistics or studies to back up my opinion, it's solely based on personal interactions. I would love to know where your perspective comes from!
    "....The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty...." -Jefferson 1787

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    And whats painfully obvious is that Democrat politicians are well aware that these programs perpetuate generaltional dependency.

    It's not like places like Cabrini Green and Robert Taylor Homes are long distant memories.

    Its the insidious nature of the left wing ideology that they are willing to essentially enslave a population in poverty, crime and violence, just to ensure a vote.
    This is true, however, it seems you may be leaving out the part where Republicans do the same thing.
    “Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.”
    Stephen R. Covey


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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    It sounds to me, and I may be wrong about your intention, but it seems you want to punish the lot, for actions of a few. From my experiences, there is nothing a poor mother wants then to get her kid out of poverty and ensure they get a better life. Obviously, you will have exceptions to that, but I don't think this lazy attitude you highlight is as rampant as you think. The people I have worked with over the years, want nothing more then to be able to provide for their families, and give back to their communities. This is just a viewpoint I pulled out my optimistic, liberal head. I can put names and faces to the people who actively work hard to help the next generation out of poverty and into productivity.

    Is the system flawed? Yes. Should their be an emphasis on short term assistance? Yes. Is there an incredible need for reformation of these programs? ABSOLUTELY. However, just writing off an entire socio economic class as lazy, entitled, scam artist, is disengenous at best. I have no problem seeing that the people you describe exist and should be addressed. I just don't believe the rhetoric and the stereotypes that claim all people benefiting from entitlements fall under that category.
    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    Please don't patronize me. There is no reason in the world for you to call me sweetheart other then to be demeaning is some capacity. It doesn't make what your saying true. The stereotypes have been around for decades. Just because you repeat something enough doesn't make it true. It makes it a common miss perception.



    Now, this is an actual statement with substance! I actually love this idea and have advocated it myself. However, the trouble I run across in practicality is the cost. Can you implement a system like that, with the same allocation of funds the current system has? The argument you into is, no and we shouldn't anyway, because it's a waste of tax payer money. How logistically, do you restructure funding, and get the people who truly believe the poor are just lazy on board with that kind of a system?

    The problem I see, is when the argument shifts to the merits of the recipients, you have a problem. Because the narrative from the right promotes the stereotype about poverty that deems them worthless and lazy, it makes it difficult to discuss. That type of narrative drives an invalid perception of the poor, that makes people think they aren't worth helping. The kinds of stereotypes you yourself promoted here. How does a national discussion about that kind of reform, if one side doesn't acknowledge it's worth reforming?
    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    I would be interested to know where your assesment comes from. I can only speak from my personal experiencee, and those experiences have been almost 100% the opposite of what you have described. Obviously these are opinions, so it's hard to say which assesment is more accurate. I don't have any statistics or studies to back up my opinion, it's solely based on personal interactions. I would love to know where your perspective comes from!
    General observation of politics. Those in Congress are generally wealthy and those who are Democrat and Progressive tend to be born into wealth. Those who are wealthy and are accused of not understanding of the poor tend to be New Wealth and Republican. I do not consider people who net wealth (Capital) less than 25M$ to be wealthy anybody 1M$ to 25M$ is just well off especially since that the bulk of the assets of the well off would be in real property or a business which would have a likely inflated value (liquidation of an asset is more likely to be less than estimated value due to an assumption that this is due to a distressed situation even if it is obvious that it is not so.) People who have greater wealth tend to have more fungible sources and less if not none are tied into a business they directly own or thru partnerships. The idea is that New Wealth have a world view that one works for a living or a better living. People who are professionals and born into middle class households might not understand about the position that the poor may have to deal with they are more like a person who was born into wealth to an extent they did not have to struggle as much to get their training so they may not understand what hard work would be necessarily to get out of poverty. The New Wealthy understand that point but they want the system to make it easier for those in poverty to get out of it instead of being just a dole. It is not easy but the way the welfare is run needs rework to avoid punishing those who are making attempts to get out of it.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    General observation of politics. Those in Congress are generally wealthy and those who are Democrat and Progressive tend to be born into wealth. Those who are wealthy and are accused of not understanding of the poor tend to be New Wealth and Republican. I do not consider people who net wealth (Capital) less than 25M$ to be wealthy anybody 1M$ to 25M$ is just well off especially since that the bulk of the assets of the well off would be in real property or a business which would have a likely inflated value (liquidation of an asset is more likely to be less than estimated value due to an assumption that this is due to a distressed situation even if it is obvious that it is not so.) People who have greater wealth tend to have more fungible sources and less if not none are tied into a business they directly own or thru partnerships. The idea is that New Wealth have a world view that one works for a living or a better living. People who are professionals and born into middle class households might not understand about the position that the poor may have to deal with they are more like a person who was born into wealth to an extent they did not have to struggle as much to get their training so they may not understand what hard work would be necessarily to get out of poverty. The New Wealthy understand that point but they want the system to make it easier for those in poverty to get out of it instead of being just a dole. It is not easy but the way the welfare is run needs rework to avoid punishing those who are making attempts to get out of it.
    I will definitely have to look into this a little more. It's an interesting idea, and I agree whole heartdly with the need to rework the system. I did want to share an a paper I came across in my preliminary search. It's from 2000, so I'm still working on more recent information. However, it actually contridicts your assertion regarding new wealth liberalism, by looking at the Forbes 400 richest American's list. It's an interesting take, but I assure you, I will be looking for a credible counter source study as well. I just wanted to share this one with you.

    The Myth of Old Money Liberalism: The Politics of the Forbes 400 Richest Americans
    VAL BURRIS, University of Oregon


    http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~vburris/oldmoney.pdf
    "....The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty...." -Jefferson 1787

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by WWGWD View Post
    I will definitely have to look into this a little more. It's an interesting idea, and I agree whole heartdly with the need to rework the system. I did want to share an a paper I came across in my preliminary search. It's from 2000, so I'm still working on more recent information. However, it actually contridicts your assertion regarding new wealth liberalism, by looking at the Forbes 400 richest American's list. It's an interesting take, but I assure you, I will be looking for a credible counter source study as well. I just wanted to share this one with you.

    The Myth of Old Money Liberalism: The Politics of the Forbes 400 Richest Americans
    VAL BURRIS, University of Oregon


    http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~vburris/oldmoney.pdf
    I just scanned the article but of course I can be wrong. While the top rich may be more inclined to be Republican does this mean that they in particular do not want poor people to get out of poverty or have the welfare system to help those who do want to get out of it? That is my issue anyway.
    An Enlightened Master is ideal only if your goal is to become a Benighted Slave. -- Robert Anton Wilson

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Serious View Post
    I just scanned the article but of course I can be wrong. While the top rich may be more inclined to be Republican does this mean that they in particular do not want poor people to get out of poverty or have the welfare system to help those who do want to get out of it? That is my issue anyway.
    My guess, is that it's really hard to distinguish sometimes the difference between conservative values, and conservative politics, which is what makes someone Republican (I'm totally generalizing here, I know that, lol). The conclusion of that paper had an intersting quote that I think applies to this discussion:

    .... Economic interests associated with the defense of property rights and opposition to labor unions and wealth redistribution tend to overwhelm all other sources of political partisanship and ideology....
    I think, and this is totally my opinion, that the values mentioned in that quote, becoming the driving force for the party you support. In general, those are the values of the Republican party, so it would make sense that that is the party that draws the support of the wealthy. With that, comes the GOP establishments additional values, of dismantling and defunding a lot of assistance programs. Not because they don't want them (though some do), but because they are inefficient and expensive. The problem I have found with that sort of an approach, is that it doesn't fix the problem of poverty in America. Simply axing the programs, doesn't help us move forward in a better way, it simply makes life more difficult for those who already have the least.
    "....The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty...." -Jefferson 1787

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    Re: Food-stamp use doubles

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    This is true, however, it seems you may be leaving out the part where Republicans do the same thing.
    Right now who is pushing for entitlement reform, and who is opposing it ?

    I get it, I'm not completely enthralled with the old guard Republicans that allowed those policies to grow and fester at the expense of millions of Americans.

    But if I only get two legitimate choices in political parties then I have to at least chose the one who's making an attempt.
    The New Democratic Party Slogan :

    " Return to Power By Any Means Necessary "

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