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Thread: CPAC chair: Christie didn't 'deserve' an invite this year

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    Re: CPAC head: Christie "doesn't deserve" to be a Republican

    This thread clearly illustrates the essential truism that "The only thing angrier than a Liberal that has just lost an election is a Liberal that has just won an election."

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    Re: CPAC head: Christie "doesn't deserve" to be a Republican

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    So you think that you had to have opposed elective democracy in its entirety in order to count as a 'conservative' in 1828? Praytell, when do you think this changed? Surely no conservative completely opposes the ballot today. Even those lunatics who want to turn back over to the state legislatures elections to the Senate do not oppose electing the state legislators themselves.
    Modern American politics takes place within the liberal democratic framework established in the first half of the 19th century, and subsequently influenced by the Civil War, industrialization and the great national exertions of the 20th century. What we call our conservative-liberal spectrum is really -- in historical terms -- a liberal-more liberal spectrum.
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    Re: CPAC head: Christie "doesn't deserve" to be a Republican

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I have plenty of tools. I should be employing them right now instead of being on this forum. Perhaps you served as a good reminder to go back to researching conservative nuclear strategists of the Cold War.
    Looks like a content-free post.
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    Re: CPAC head: Christie "doesn't deserve" to be a Republican

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Modern American politics takes place within the liberal democratic framework established in the first half of the 19th century, and subsequently influenced by the Civil War, industrialization and the great national exertions of the 20th century. What we call our conservative-liberal spectrum is really -- in historical terms -- a liberal-more liberal spectrum.
    This... isn't a particularly good way to look at things.

    'Liberalism' didn't begin on some sunny day in summer 1776. Liberalism had been a force, even a dominant one, in Great Britain for a half-century prior to the American Revolution. And the American Revolutionaries were operating in that context. Everything the Revolutionaries fought for was documented in the annals of British liberalism in the mid-eighteenth century. And conservatism, as both a reaction to and incorporation of that liberalism, didn't arrive ex nihilo on the scene with the Goldwater campaign.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
    - Ragnar Redbeard, Might Is Right, 1890

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    Re: CPAC head: Christie "doesn't deserve" to be a Republican

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    This... isn't a particularly good way to look at things.

    'Liberalism' didn't begin on some sunny day in summer 1776. Liberalism had been a force, even a dominant one, in Great Britain for a half-century prior to the American Revolution. And the American Revolutionaries were operating in that context. Everything the Revolutionaries fought for was documented in the annals of British liberalism in the mid-eighteenth century. And conservatism, as both a reaction to and incorporation of that liberalism, didn't arrive ex nihilo on the scene with the Goldwater campaign.
    Now you're agreeing with me. Well done. It all goes back to Hobbes through Locke, et al. American politics takes place in that stream.
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    Re: CPAC head: Christie "doesn't deserve" to be a Republican

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Now you're agreeing with me. Well done. It all goes back to Hobbes through Locke, et al. American politics takes place in that stream.
    No, your argument is that there were literally no conservatives in 1828. Consequentially, 'conservatism' simply arrived out of the blue one day, and for no particular reason.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
    - Ragnar Redbeard, Might Is Right, 1890

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    Re: CPAC head: Christie "doesn't deserve" to be a Republican

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    No, your argument is that there were literally no conservatives in 1828. Consequentially, 'conservatism' simply arrived out of the blue one day, and for no particular reason.
    I apologize. I misled you by giving you too much credit. What we today call conservatism is really just liberalism closer to its 19th century classic American form. It evolved, like American politics generally, from the early 19th century framework from which European conservatism had been excised.
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    Re: CPAC head: Christie "doesn't deserve" to be a Republican

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    I apologize. I misled you by giving you too much credit. What we today call conservatism is really just liberalism closer to its 19th century classic American form. It evolved, like American politics generally, from the early 19th century framework from which European conservatism had been excised.
    Except this isn't accurate, either. As much as, for instance, American libertarians want to claim direct descent from what they call 'classical liberalism', they're quite far removed. The Liberal Party under Gladstone, for example, instituted the first Poor Laws in Great Britain, spending federal monies to construct workhouses and other elements of a prototypical social safety net. And even going back further, Adam Smith called for an activist government.

    There are elements of influence in classical liberalism on modern conservatism, but they are by no means directly correlated.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
    - Ragnar Redbeard, Might Is Right, 1890

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    Re: CPAC head: Christie "doesn't deserve" to be a Republican

    Quote Originally Posted by Einzige View Post
    Except this isn't accurate, either. As much as, for instance, American libertarians want to claim direct descent from what they call 'classical liberalism', they're quite far removed. The Liberal Party under Gladstone, for example, instituted the first Poor Laws in Great Britain, spending federal monies to construct workhouses and other elements of a prototypical social safety net. And even going back further, Adam Smith called for an activist government.

    There are elements of influence in classical liberalism on modern conservatism, but they are by no means directly correlated.
    I have made no claims as to the ideological descent of modern libertarians, and that's irrelevant to our discussion. Gladstone's Liberal Party is relevant to a discussion of British politics, not American. Disraeli's Conservatives expanded the franchise, but that has no bearing on American conservatives either. My claim is that modern American conservatives are descended from 19th century liberals. This does not mean, of course, that modern liberals are not descended from 19th century liberals too. Of course they are.
    Last edited by Jack Hays; 03-14-13 at 06:48 PM.
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    Re: CPAC head: Christie "doesn't deserve" to be a Republican

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Small government is not a "true" conservative principle. It is a conservative principle. Big government has quite the lengthy history in conservatism. Americans since influenced by southerners interested in such small government policies (well, that is, until big government benefited the planter class..then big government was okay) , have largely forgotten that.
    That's one of the problems, the idiots in power currently pretending they are conservatives are not for a small government, they are for the biggest government money can buy, just like the Democrats. They are not for personal responsibility, another core conservative value, they want to buy as many votes through entitlement spending as they can, just like the Democrats. They don't want to keep government out of people's lives, hell, in that, they're even worse than the Democrats. There is nothing whatsoever about the Republican Party that is conservative. They're religious wingnut liberals.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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