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Thread: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    James Holmes the individual doesn't have to prove anything or say anything - his attorneys do.

    James Holmes doesn't have to take the stand or say a word to anyone about why he did what he allegedly did.
    true, but if they want to convince a jury he is insane he will have to speak to the shrinks. he can stay silent about it, but that is not going to get him looking insane. he was not a crazy mute before it happened, so that whole idea would get destroyed by the prosecution. Silence is not going to help him, and it would actually show he knows what he is doing. You are arguing a completely different issue which has much different legal ramifications. If you commit a crime and are not pleading insanity as a reason why you did it then silence is a great thing for reasonable doubt. he is claiming something, and obscuring that claim does him no good, or the defense if you want to be technical about it. The defense wants him to be declared insane at the time. the state has the opportunity to question that claim. This is court, not an interrogation. if you make an argument in court the opponent has the opportunity to bring up evidence to invalidate it. to make a claim is not invoking your fifth amendment. It is inherently making a statement which the prosecution can attack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    It's not weather Holmes defense is viable it's weather or not it's relevant and that is for a jury to decide.
    yes, and that means the jury will be presented with counter arguments to the defendant's state of mind. You don't just get to make a claim on either side and have it not responded to. His defense team will have their own opportunity to present their evidence he was insane at the time. His rights are not being violated by allowing the prosecution to argue against that claim. that is what actually goes on in court. Since he is not being compelled to plead guilty, which is in fact what he is doing if he goes with insanity, then your entire argument becomes void. he is not claiming innocence with a insanity plea, and that is the very simple part you are missing here.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    What a ridiculous ruling.

    Why would such a thing even be necessary? They caught him with guns and ammo. He had freaking red dyed hair so he was relatively easy to pick out in a crowd. They know that his apartment was all booby trapped. He's guilty. Put him in front of a jury and get the damned verdict.
    Well the defense was testing the ability for their client to plead insanity and the judge decided to use the truth serum to detect if he would qualify for an insanity plea. This judge is a moron who, like Deuce said, might have seriously jeapordized this case for the prosecution.
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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Lol! I love how transparent judges are these days. How in the hell is the truth serum constitutional? I swear. Don't even bother people, the state is forcing the guy to help them.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    being from texas you should appreciate this. if he is insane they cannot execute him. I will also note that he is not pleading not guilty by reason of insanity, he is pleading guilty by reason of insanity. You don't need a jury or a verdict to be reached to plead guilty at any time and be convicted. I know you have watched a bunch of lawyer shows and think he will just walk free because he proves he is insane, but it simply is not true. once you establish you are insane in a legal sense you are no longer under your own control. They are not going to release a person who hosed down a movie theater with bullets with a prescription on outpatient status. if he is insane, he goes to a max security booby hatch.
    It comes down to the fact that drugging someone for the purpose of forcing him to be witness against himself, which prosecution would seek to use against his plea, prior to reading the verdict, is unlawful. Him being released certainly had never entered my mind as a possibility.

    btw... I’m not sure why I would inherently appreciate something because of where I live, and I don’t watch lawyer shows.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Very uncomfortable with the idea, for several reasons.

    Medical privacy and due process.... and the dubious effectiveness of so-called "Truth serums" in the first place.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    I think this whole fiasco is an issue of weather or not he spends the rest of his life in a mental institution or a prison...
    now you are getting it. The defense wants him in an institution. It would probably be the best thing he could hope for. They also want to take execution off the table. Both of which are accomplished by a insanity plea. I am not terribly bothered by the idea that the prosecution using means to determine a state of mind defense to be a lie. You already admit to doing the crime when you make the claim so self incrimination becomes a non-issue. Then it just becomes an issue over why you did it and whether or not that excuse is valid. In that case lying becomes a major issue, and making an argument over the defendant's attempt to lie becomes a major part of that. if he is sane lying would be a way to mitigate punishment, which is a argument for the jury to decide if it is valid.

    the defense is making the claim and now they are going to have to argue it. I don't see anywhere that a claim cannot be argued against in court. What I do see is your right to make that argument in court, which involves a counter argument. If he was pleading not guilty i would agree that a truth syrum is not only unreliable, but also a huge violation of his rights. however, he is pleading guilty.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    true, but if they want to convince a jury he is insane he will have to speak to the shrinks. he can stay silent about it, but that is not going to get him looking insane. he was not a crazy mute before it happened, so that whole idea would get destroyed by the prosecution. Silence is not going to help him, and it would actually show he knows what he is doing. You are arguing a completely different issue which has much different legal ramifications. If you commit a crime and are not pleading insanity as a reason why you did it then silence is a great thing for reasonable doubt. he is claiming something, and obscuring that claim does him no good, or the defense if you want to be technical about it. The defense wants him to be declared insane at the time. the state has the opportunity to question that claim. This is court, not an interrogation. if you make an argument in court the opponent has the opportunity to bring up evidence to invalidate it. to make a claim is not invoking your fifth amendment. It is inherently making a statement which the prosecution can attack.


    yes, and that means the jury will be presented with counter arguments to the defendant's state of mind. You don't just get to make a claim on either side and have it not responded to. His defense team will have their own opportunity to present their evidence he was insane at the time. His rights are not being violated by allowing the prosecution to argue against that claim. that is what actually goes on in court. Since he is not being compelled to plead guilty, which is in fact what he is doing if he goes with insanity, then your entire argument becomes void. he is not claiming innocence with a insanity plea, and that is the very simple part you are missing here.
    James Holmes defense can (and will) put the best defense possible together. At the end of the day it will be up to the jury to find him guilty or determine that he is insane.. However Holmes has no responsibility to help the court hang him.

    At the end of the day I don't think any of this matters considering he will end up in a prison or mental institution for the rest of his life. Not to mention if they find him sane and give him the death penalty he will either die in prison of natural causes or get offed by other inmates before he sees the death chamber...

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    While I am against setting a president like this, I am not certain it is a violation of the 5th amendment. If he is pleading guilty by reason of insanity he HAS to talk to a court appoint psychiatrist anyway. Is THAT a violation of the 5th amendment?

    I am still against it, though.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarcogito View Post
    While I am against setting a president like this, I am not certain it is a violation of the 5th amendment. If he is pleading guilty by reason of insanity he HAS to talk to a court appoint psychiatrist anyway. Is THAT a violation of the 5th amendment?

    I am still against it, though.
    IMHO, forcing him to take this drug before the interview is do different than extracting information from torture. It is unreliable and unconstitutional.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Unless every person claiming insanity is given this "truth serum", why is he being singled out?

    Very uncomfortable with a person having to take a serum to prove they are something.

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