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Thread: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Completely unconstitutional. A suspect or defendant must be of sound mind when speaking with police, or else Miranda is not preserved. Use of drugs or chemicals is no less coercion than a beating. This is a violation not only of fifth amendment rights against self incrimination, but fourth amendment rights against unreasonable search seizure.

    Actually, this door is opened up by his claims of insanity. They are nto questioning him at that point about his guilt in the incident as he has to admit to doing it to plead insanity. this would not be a questioning to gather evidence about the crime itself. the defendant would make a claim about his state of mind, and the prosecution would have a right to question that claim in many ways to discredit it. It has little to do with the fifth as he has to incriminate himself to claim insanity. Also, there is no actual physical search going on.

    If it worries you it cannot be used against you unless you are claiming insanity and admitting to guilt. he is not pleading innocent by reason of insanity, he would be pleading guilty by reason of insanity. Really, this has become more of an issue of where he spends the rest of his life. Will he be executed, go to prison, or go to a booby hatch for the criminally insane? It makes sense for the defense because they know he shot the place up, and they know he booby trapped his house to cause further injury. They have no real argument he wasn't guilty of doing the crime.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Actually, this door is opened up by his claims of insanity. They are nto questioning him at that point about his guilt in the incident as he has to admit to doing it to plead insanity. this would not be a questioning to gather evidence about the crime itself. the defendant would make a claim about his state of mind, and the prosecution would have a right to question that claim in many ways to discredit it. It has little to do with the fifth as he has to incriminate himself to claim insanity. Also, there is no actual physical search going on.

    If it worries you it cannot be used against you unless you are claiming insanity and admitting to guilt. he is not pleading innocent by reason of insanity, he would be pleading guilty by reason of insanity. Really, this has become more of an issue of where he spends the rest of his life. Will he be executed, go to prison, or go to a booby hatch for the criminally insane? It makes sense for the defense because they know he shot the place up, and they know he booby trapped his house to cause further injury. They have no real argument he wasn't guilty of doing the crime.
    Holmes doesn't have to prove he's insane. That is for the jury to determine.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    James Holmes doesn't have to say a word and if the state tries to force him to say a word A) it would be inadmissible at trial and B) the state will get their ass sued off by every civil rights attorney in the country..
    Actually, wrong. If they want to claim insanity they have to prove he was in some altered mental state. Silence does not prove that. he has the freedom to face the charges and plead innocent and shut his trap. That has not changed. he is not pleading not guilty and invoking the fifth to protect himself from incrimination. in order to say he was insane at the time of the crime he has to admit to doing the crime. It is sort of like zimmerman. In order to make the claim of standing his ground he has to admit to shooting treyvon. It is a matter of a state of mind at the time, and that requires the defendant to say something to prove their state of mind. Pleading the fifth would destroy their case for insanity as it would give them no way to show their state of mind, and remaining silent would show sanity and a realization holmes was aware of his actions at the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    IMO, the Judge in question is more insane than Holmes. He just screwed himself. This nutball Judge will be working at Burger King before Holmes is even sentenced.
    You are just afraid it will blow up in their faces. Though i can agree with those fears it just is not about guilt or innocence when a state of mind defense is claimed. gult is already determined in the claim. It is just how the excuse will mitigate the punishment.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Besides does this guy really look sane to anyone?


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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Actually, this door is opened up by his claims of insanity. They are nto questioning him at that point about his guilt in the incident as he has to admit to doing it to plead insanity. this would not be a questioning to gather evidence about the crime itself. the defendant would make a claim about his state of mind, and the prosecution would have a right to question that claim in many ways to discredit it. It has little to do with the fifth as he has to incriminate himself to claim insanity.
    It doesn’t matter that he incriminates himself by pleading insanity; a verdict has not been read yet, thus no conviction. The entire point is to question him for evidence AGAINST his plea – that he was in fact sane. Being put on trial and questioned to discover the extent of that insanity, and drugging him to make him talk, is two completely different things.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Holmes doesn't have to prove he's insane. That is for the jury to determine.
    If the jury determines he was insane he is guilty and will go to a booby hatch. if they determine he was sane he faces life in prison or execution. he doesn't get to walk away if he is declared insane. As a matter of fact his determination of insanity would put him under the control of psychiatrists who never have to declare him sane again. Also, the jury will not have to go through the process of becoming psychological professionals. they will base their conclusions on the testimony of psychological professionals. you seem to be under the misperception that an insanity plea lets you off the hook entirely if they do find you insane. insanity is one of the many ways thy can use to strip you of all of your rights by making you incapable of making your own decisions.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Actually, wrong. If they want to claim insanity they have to prove he was in some altered mental state. Silence does not prove that. he has the freedom to face the charges and plead innocent and shut his trap. That has not changed. he is not pleading not guilty and invoking the fifth to protect himself from incrimination. in order to say he was insane at the time of the crime he has to admit to doing the crime. It is sort of like zimmerman. In order to make the claim of standing his ground he has to admit to shooting treyvon. It is a matter of a state of mind at the time, and that requires the defendant to say something to prove their state of mind. Pleading the fifth would destroy their case for insanity as it would give them no way to show their state of mind, and remaining silent would show sanity and a realization holmes was aware of his actions at the time.


    You are just afraid it will blow up in their faces. Though i can agree with those fears it just is not about guilt or innocence when a state of mind defense is claimed. gult is already determined in the claim. It is just how the excuse will mitigate the punishment.
    James Holmes the individual doesn't have to prove anything or say anything - his attorneys do.

    James Holmes doesn't have to take the stand or say a word to anyone about why he did what he allegedly did.

    It's not weather Holmes defense is viable it's weather or not it's relevant and that is for a jury to decide.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    If the jury determines he was insane he is guilty and will go to a booby hatch. if they determine he was sane he faces life in prison or execution. he doesn't get to walk away if he is declared insane. As a matter of fact his determination of insanity would put him under the control of psychiatrists who never have to declare him sane again. Also, the jury will not have to go through the process of becoming psychological professionals. they will base their conclusions on the testimony of psychological professionals. you seem to be under the misperception that an insanity plea lets you off the hook entirely if they do find you insane. insanity is one of the many ways thy can use to strip you of all of your rights by making you incapable of making your own decisions.
    "Insanity" is already a plea of guilt, I stated that a few pages back.

    The question is - Is James Holmes really insane??

    He doesn't have to prove he is insane - all he has to do is raise a reasonable doubt that he is sane.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by TML View Post
    It doesn’t matter that he incriminates himself by pleading insanity; a verdict has not been read yet, thus no conviction. The entire point is to question him for evidence AGAINST his plea – that he was in fact sane. Being put on trial and questioned to discover the extent of that insanity, and drugging him to make him talk, is two completely different things.
    being from texas you should appreciate this. if he is insane they cannot execute him. I will also note that he is not pleading not guilty by reason of insanity, he is pleading guilty by reason of insanity. You don't need a jury or a verdict to be reached to plead guilty at any time and be convicted. I know you have watched a bunch of lawyer shows and think he will just walk free because he proves he is insane, but it simply is not true. once you establish you are insane in a legal sense you are no longer under your own control. They are not going to release a person who hosed down a movie theater with bullets with a prescription on outpatient status. if he is insane, he goes to a max security booby hatch.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    being from texas you should appreciate this. if he is insane they cannot execute him. I will also note that he is not pleading not guilty by reason of insanity, he is pleading guilty by reason of insanity. You don't need a jury or a verdict to be reached to plead guilty at any time and be convicted. I know you have watched a bunch of lawyer shows and think he will just walk free because he proves he is insane, but it simply is not true. once you establish you are insane in a legal sense you are no longer under your own control. They are not going to release a person who hosed down a movie theater with bullets with a prescription on outpatient status. if he is insane, he goes to a max security booby hatch.
    I think this whole fiasco is an issue of weather or not he spends the rest of his life in a mental institution or a prison...

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