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Thread: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

  1. #31
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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by specklebang View Post
    What's the point of having freedom of speech if nobody pays attention to what you say?

    Did you read anything I posted that advocated "against his will"? Quite the contrary, I suggested it might help him escape the death penalty. I believe I also said: Like a lie detector device, the results can not be 100% certain and thus can not be used to convict.

    This is not a First Amendment issue It's a Fifth Amendment issue.

    James Holmes has every right to keep his mouth shut and not incriminate himself.... If he chooses to talk on his own free will than that is his own problem but he cannot be forced to talk with "truth juice."

    Even if they did give it to him nothing he says could be used against him without causing a mistrial. So the whole point would be moot, not to mention open the doors for a massive lawsuit(s) against the state via civil rights violations.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    What a ridiculous ruling.

    Why would such a thing even be necessary? They caught him with guns and ammo. He had freaking red dyed hair so he was relatively easy to pick out in a crowd. They know that his apartment was all booby trapped. He's guilty. Put him in front of a jury and get the damned verdict.
    It's not to determine guilt, but rather to see if he's trying to fake a mental illness that would shield him from the consequences of his actions. As I read it, it's only IF he pleads insanity.

    Even so, it's a bridge too far in my book.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    It's not to determine guilt, but rather to see if he's trying to fake a mental illness that would shield him from the consequences of his actions. As I read it, it's only IF he pleads insanity.

    Even so, it's a bridge too far in my book.
    I don't care what his excuse is. Crazy or not the guy needs to either go away forever or, preferably take a seat on old sparky.

  4. #34
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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    I don't care what his excuse is. Crazy or not the guy needs to either go away forever or, preferably take a seat on old sparky.
    Agreed, but the reality is, if he's found to not have had the capacity for mens rea during the crime, he might not be going away for long.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    IMO, I don't care what frame of mind someone is in. If they murder, they should be held accountable.
    Intent is what matters. What you did and why you did it is extremely applicable to a charge and a defense.

    Here are a couple of mock examples of my point.

    Someone could slap me across the face and when I punch them back in the head for being stupid I could kill them... Would I be guilty of murder if my intent was just to punch them and not kill them?

    Now lets use the same scenario - a guy slaps me across the face, I pull out a gun and shoot him in the face. Am I guilty of murder?

    Same scenario - I hate a guy who I know will slap me, I concoct a plan for him to slap me just so I can shoot him.

    The end in all these scenarios ended up with a guy dead but is the intent the same in all of them? no.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by TML View Post
    The ruling of the Judge is a crime.

    Colorado Constitution - Article 2 Section 18 – “No person shall be compelled to testify against himself in a criminal case…”

    United States Constitution – 5th Amendment – “…nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself…”

    The entire stated purpose is to drug him in order for prosecution to compel him to testify against his plea of insanity. If he is guilty without doubt, then no such action is required. And frankly, a person who does what he did surely cannot be considered “sane”… that’s like some rabid dog.
    They could probably get away with drugging him, they just couldn't use anything he says at his trial considering such a drugging would violate the Fifth Amendment and would be classified as "coercion."

    IMO, this tactic is no different than beating a confession out of someone. It's just a different method.

    If the state even continues with this plan they will be battling lawsuits for eons. I bet they're already to go the second they put that needle into his arm...

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Completely unconstitutional. A suspect or defendant must be of sound mind when speaking with police, or else Miranda is not preserved. Use of drugs or chemicals is no less coercion than a beating. This is a violation not only of fifth amendment rights against self incrimination, but fourth amendment rights against unreasonable search seizure.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    The simple fact this judge pulled this stunt will allow Holmes to "walk free" (temporarily)...
    After i thought about it a little more it might not be true that this could cause a problem for keeping him imprisoned. This is an attempt to discredit the claim he was insane, and not that he did not do it. The first part of a plea of insanity would be admitting guilt. He has to admit to doing it to plead insanity. Then the argument becomes more about how he will be imprisoned or if he will be executed. because he will make the claim of insanity it probably opens up this line of questioning to determine his mental state. I would imagine this claim opens the defendant up for a number of different types of examinations into his state of mind.

    Still, i agree he won't be free for long if he is ever let out.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Agreed, but the reality is, if he's found to not have had the capacity for mens rea during the crime, he might not be going away for long.
    Shouldn't even be a consideration. He booby trapped his residence, did a whole bunch of planning and completed the deed. It wasn't an "accident" of a lapse of judgement.

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    Re: Judge approves use of 'truth serum' on accused Aurora shooter James Holmes

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    After i thought about it a little more it might not be true that this could cause a problem for keeping him imprisoned. This is an attempt to discredit the claim he was insane, and not that he did not do it. The first part of a plea of insanity would be admitting guilt. He has to admit to doing it to plead insanity. Then the argument becomes more about how he will be imprisoned or if he will be executed. because he will make the claim of insanity it probably opens up this line of questioning to determine his mental state. I would imagine this claim opens the defendant up for a number of different types of examinations into his state of mind.

    Still, i agree he won't be free for long if he is ever let out.
    James Holmes doesn't have to say a word and if the state tries to force him to say a word A) it would be inadmissible at trial and B) the state will get their ass sued off by every civil rights attorney in the country..

    IMO, the Judge in question is more insane than Holmes. He just screwed himself. This nutball Judge will be working at Burger King before Holmes is even sentenced.

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