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Thread: How a U.S. Citizen Came to Be in America’s Cross Hairs

  1. #71
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    Re: How a U.S. Citizen Came to Be in America’s Cross Hairs

    Quote Originally Posted by TML View Post
    The only fact of our enemy being amorphous is that of the foolishness of refusing to clearly identifying them. I will then ask my question in reverse. Who, exactly, is at war with us?




    As I’ve said, the President does have the Constitutional power to repel sudden attacks or command military forces in the defense against hostilities made directly against the United States, but without a degree from Congress he cannot put us in a state of war. Bin Laden is dead, but the wars rage on as we look for new enemies to feed the military industrial complex.

    Defense against those who might attack us is entirely different than the preemptive imperialist policies which have led to perpetual undeclared wars, as you seem to think it’s acceptable to chase nomads and bandits to the ends of the earth without regard for the sovereignty of all those nations which I pointed out. There is a serious folly in the position you choose, and history supports that opinion at every turn.

    “The leader of genius must have the ability to make different opponents appear as if they belong to one category” – “Terrorism is the best political weapon, for nothing drives people harder than the fear of sudden death” – Adolf Hitler

    And lo and behold, you support endless wars against an amorphous enemy; the nameless, faceless, shadow boogeyman “terrorist”.

    You support unbridled executive power to wage war on this undefined enemy, while arbitrarily disregarding the separation of powers delegated by the Constitution.
    Not even the founders would agree with you.

    “The constitution supposes, what the History of all Governments demonstrates, that the Executive is the branch of power most interested in war, & most prone to it. It has accordingly with studied care, vested the question of war in the Legislature.” – James Madison

    “If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. Of all the enemies to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. The loss of liberty at home is to be charged to the provisions against danger, real or imagined, from abroad.” – James Madison

    “In time of actual war, great discretionary powers are constantly given to the Executive Magistrate… …an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defense against foreign danger have been always the instruments of tyranny at home.” – James Madison

    “America, with the same voice which spoke herself into existence as a nation, proclaimed to mankind the inextinguishable rights of human nature, and the only lawful foundations of government. America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity. She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights. She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own. She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right. Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force.... She might become the dictatress of the world. She would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit....” – John Quincy Adams
    You might not be interested in war, but war is interested in you. -- Trotsky (paraphrased).

    So terrorists will continue to attack America whether they fit into the comfortable pigeon holes you prefer or not. You want to use the non-traditional nature of these enemies as a pretext to limit the President's powers to respond to them. They are warring with us, but it's not really a war, if I understand your meaning, therefore the President can't, or should not be able to, respond with the full authority of the Commander in Chief. But instead must, what? What sort of oversight do you have in mind? Surely you don't mean to say that the President can't do anything until Congress declares war? Also, do you mean to say that a terrorist who has attacked us before and who is known to be plotting to attack us again and is urging others to attack us is not at war with us and is not a fit target for military action? Is this the sort of creature that you would insist that the President must wait on a Congressional declaration of war to deal with?

    This seems to me to be unworkable and unwieldy, and that it will be to our detriment to hamstring the President and thereby hamstring the military in this way.

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." --HL Mencken

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    Re: How a U.S. Citizen Came to Be in America’s Cross Hairs

    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    Terrorists are terrorists. Our experience is they don't gather and plot bake sales and car washes. Training, plotting, sunbathing in the nude. I don't give a ****. You leave the states and go hang out with terrorists you are a target. There are intel agencies that track those groups. That's why they become "targets".

    Does your continued posting mean you have now actually bothered to go back and read the article and OP in question? Just curious since you didn't have the first ****ing clue a few posts ago.
    You didn't answer either question.

    Who were the terrorists they were "chilling" with? You MUST know who in order to make the determination you did and make the factual claim you did.

    And do you retract your claim about the active plotting of an attack?
    Last edited by SJ-10; 03-15-13 at 06:28 AM.

  3. #73
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    How a U.S. Citizen Came to Be in America’s Cross Hairs

    Quote Originally Posted by SJ-10 View Post
    You didn't answer either question.

    Who were the terrorists they were "chilling" with? You MUST know who in order to make the determination you did and make the factual claim you did.

    And do you retract your claim about the active plotting of an attack?
    No...'I' don't need to know which group they were chillin with. That's the intel community and militaries job. And of COURSE I don't retract the 'plotting' comment. Terrorists by definition plot and engage in acts of terror. That they were killed around the campfire instead of in the act of killing someone is a GOOD thing. Obviously you believe Obama and the military are flying sound randomly targeting just anyone.

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    Re: How a U.S. Citizen Came to Be in America’s Cross Hairs

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    So terrorists will continue to attack America whether they fit into the comfortable pigeon holes you prefer or not.
    Yes, criminals will always create violence; which for all practical purposes, that all the vague notions of “terrorist” amounts to… criminals. What then does that say about your ideas of being at war?

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    You want to use the non-traditional nature of these enemies as a pretext to limit the President's powers to respond to them.
    “Response” isn’t what you have been arguing.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    They are warring with us, but it's not really a war, if I understand your meaning, therefore the President can't, or should not be able to, respond with the full authority of the Commander in Chief…. … Surely you don't mean to say that the President can't do anything until Congress declares war?
    I see no war here. I see no invasion here. I don’t even see any “terrorist” attacks here. And don’t you dare say 9/11… Bin Laden is dead. Move on.
    Abroad? Hmm, let’s see…. Benghazi? Oh that’s right… the nation the President preemptively attacked, and then armed the terrorist rebels to help them over throw their sovereign and they then turn and attack us, while the President sat there with his thumb up his butt.
    What you promote is dangerous preemptive imperialism, not a response to being attacked.

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Also, do you mean to say that a terrorist who has attacked us before and who is known to be plotting to attack us again and is urging others to attack us is not at war with us and is not a fit target for military action? Is this the sort of creature that you would insist that the President must wait on a Congressional declaration of war to deal with?
    I hardly think a declaration of war, or any preemptive military action, or assassination, is required or even proper in dealing with a criminal.
    Last edited by TML; 03-15-13 at 12:49 PM.

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    Re: How a U.S. Citizen Came to Be in America’s Cross Hairs

    Quote Originally Posted by TML View Post
    Yes, criminals will always create violence; which for all practical purposes, that all the vague notions of “terrorist” amounts to… criminals.
    No one could take the above seriously.

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    Re: How a U.S. Citizen Came to Be in America’s Cross Hairs

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    No one could take the above seriously.
    What shouldn't be taken seriously are these ideas of shadow boogeymen terrorist ninjas used to justify a perpetual state of war.

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    Re: How a U.S. Citizen Came to Be in America’s Cross Hairs

    Quote Originally Posted by TML View Post
    What shouldn't be taken seriously are these ideas of shadow boogeymen terrorist ninjas used to justify a perpetual state of war.
    Haha.

    It's 1984!

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    Re: How a U.S. Citizen Came to Be in America’s Cross Hairs

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Haha.

    It's 1984!
    Not sure what that is supposed to mean. In a nutshell, what I just said is how American Citizens came to be in America’s crosshairs.

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    Re: How a U.S. Citizen Came to Be in America’s Cross Hairs

    Quote Originally Posted by TML View Post
    Not sure what that is supposed to mean. In a nutshell, what I just said is how American Citizens came to be in America’s crosshairs.
    What does it mean? Are you a Truther?

    Look, man, I'll tell ya - the war on terror policies have not affected my life one iota. Perhaps you're doing it wrong.

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    Re: How a U.S. Citizen Came to Be in America’s Cross Hairs

    3+-
    Quote Originally Posted by VanceMack View Post
    No...'I' don't need to know which group they were chillin with. That's the intel community and militaries job. And of COURSE I don't retract the 'plotting' comment. Terrorists by definition plot and engage in acts of terror. That they were killed around the campfire instead of in the act of killing someone is a GOOD thing. Obviously you believe Obama and the military are flying sound randomly targeting just anyone.
    You can take your leader's word for it and believe them all you want but this does not prove your claims. When claiming things as facts, you should have proof better than your leaders told you so.

    He is a terrorist because he plots attacks, and he's plotting an attack because he's a terrorist is by the way circular logic.

    This really just illustrates that supporters in this foreign policy don't have the requisite information to know any of this and rather believe this merely because they've been told to.

    You can believe what you want, merely because your leaders tell you that's what happened, all you want, but if you make a factual claim on the internet without proof to back it up I will call you out on it.

    Once again, I will remind you that Obama lied about the attack and many others, as well as the CIA, the DoD and others who lie about these matters routinely.
    Last edited by SJ-10; 03-15-13 at 01:29 PM.

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