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Thread: Judge: Town's speeding cameras are '3 Card Monty' scam

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    Re: Judge: Town's speeding cameras are '3 Card Monty' scam

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    How do you know what a safe speed that road is designed for? Are you a street designer?
    Procedures for Establishing Speed Zones: Determining the 85th Percentile Speed


    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I think you are just wanting an excuse to speed.
    thanks for sharing your opinion.

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    Re: Judge: Town's speeding cameras are '3 Card Monty' scam

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    You are the last person who should be trying to advocate for the removal of speed and redlight cameras. Because people will look at your opposition as rooted in the fact you want to drive over the speed limit.
    I drive over the posted limit most of the time. But many times I'm driving under the posted limit. I drive safely. How can a bureaucrat in the state government determine what the speed limit should be. As other posters have pointed out, considering road design and other factors, most speed limits are arbitrary and unrealistic.

    Like most folks, I drive at a speed I am comfortable with, depending upon road conditions and traffic.

    If one pays attention, many cops drive over the posted limit without red lights on, talking on the cell phone. I can drive as well as they can.

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    Re: Judge: Town's speeding cameras are '3 Card Monty' scam

    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    Re: Judge: Town's speeding cameras are '3 Card Monty' scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    i would like to drive at the safe speed that the road was designed for. people can read into my opposition anything they want, because it doesn't matter. however, i try to be as safe as possible, because i don't want to hurt myself or anyone else.
    excellent point
    interstates, based on germany's autobahn, were normally designed to accommodate a 100 mph road speed; like many tools now available, the user is often the only thing holding back its potential performance
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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    Re: Judge: Town's speeding cameras are '3 Card Monty' scam

    I think only the police should be allowed to operate such a speed camera, they can (like in the Netherlands) have all the transactions/fines collecting by one organization which can levy on top of the fine transaction costs (in the Netherlands those are about 8 dollars on top of the ticket). In the Netherlands this is done by a governmental organization but in the US you can choose to have this done by a commercial company which can charge a nominal fee (fixed fee) for example of 10 dollars on top of the fine to do all the administrative processes of collecting such a fine.

    Having a speed camera operated by a commercial company which gets 40% of revenue should be made illegal IMHO because levying fines should be done to help road safety, not line the pockets of commercial enterprises.
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    Re: Judge: Town's speeding cameras are '3 Card Monty' scam

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    excellent point
    interstates, based on germany's autobahn, were normally designed to accommodate a 100 mph road speed; like many tools now available, the user is often the only thing holding back its potential performance
    I agree.....also I would consider the construct of our Roads as compared to the Autobahn. The Autobahn has far less repairs than our roads do. Which is due to us not building Roads the in the same way. Which the Autobahn is safer.

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    Re: Judge: Town's speeding cameras are '3 Card Monty' scam

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I have mixed feelings on this.I believe that if people were not speeding or running red lights then they would not be getting fined,so its their own damn fault they got fined. At the same time people should be able to face their accusers. And maybe I watched Robocop movies one too many times but I believe that law enforcement duties should be carried out only by law enforcement not private companies and machines.

    Judge: Town's speeding cameras are '3 Card Monty' scam
    Hamilton County Common Pleas Judge Robert Ruehlman on Thursday ruled that the village's ordinance violated due process. He issued an injunction barring its enforcement.
    There have been numerous legal challenges across the U.S. to red-light camera laws but observers said this is the first ruling they know of striking down a municipality's speeding-camera law.
    "Speed-camera cases have been litigated but we have not come across one where a judge has said, 'Stop this,'" attorney Mike Allen, whose firm brought the case, told MSN News on Friday. "I think it's going to touch off a firestorm around the country. I really do."
    Calls and emails by MSN News to Elmwood Place village officials and police Chief William Peskin were not immediately returned on Friday. Allen said he expects the village to appeal.
    Ruehlman sprinkled colorful language in his ruling striking down Elmwood's "automated speed enforcement program," which is carried out by Optotraffic, a Lanham, Md.-based company, under a contract with the village. Optotraffic gets a 40 percent cut of the revenues from fines it collects.
    The two cameras installed in town reportedly resulted in 6,600 speeding citations — three times the village's population -— at $105 a pop in the first month after enforcement began in September.
    The judge, who heard arguments in January, found that the ordinance fails to provide due process to people receiving a notice of fines in the mail. He said the village doesn’t have a sign warning motorists that traffic cameras are in operation, as required by state law.
    To challenge the $105 fine, a motorist has to pay $25 for a hearing that is "nothing more than a sham!" the judge wrote. At the hearing, he said, the "witness" for the village testifies from a report produced by the company that owns the speed-monitoring unit. Since the "witness" was not present when the alleged violation occurred, he or she can't be cross-examined, Ruehlman wrote.
    The part in red is my primary objection. (There are others, too)

    It doesn't help that the company that runs our local camera system gets paid per ticket, which IMO only serves to encourage dishonesty. I don't think law enforcement should should be contracted out privately at all to begin with, but if it has to be it should be done on a flat fee basis, whether the camera cites one motorist or 1000.
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    Re: Judge: Town's speeding cameras are '3 Card Monty' scam

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    excellent point
    interstates, based on germany's autobahn, were normally designed to accommodate a 100 mph road speed; like many tools now available, the user is often the only thing holding back its potential performance
    Well, then you are forgetting the technical aspect of the car and the performance of other cars. If the speed between users of the autobahn is too great, accidents will happen and be more dramatic and deadly than with speeds of 85 miles an hour.

    For example, if someone driving 85 miles an hour wants to pass a truck driving 60 miles an hour he will look in his mirrors and see a car a long ways back, thinking it is safe he starts passing the truck. Unfortunately, if no speed limits exists (like on some parts of the Autobahn) and the driver is driving upward of 125 miles (155 miles has also been driven on the autobahn, and faster), accidents will happen.

    If you know that logically the driver coming up behind is at most 10 to 15 miles faster than you, and not driving 40 to 80 miles faster than you, you can gue-estimate how safe you are in you attempt to pass the car you want to pass. If however the driver coming up behind you is 80 miles faster than your car will be on your tail in seconds flat and may or not be able to break in time to not plow into you, this will most likely at that speed be enough to kill you in 2 seconds flat.

    Speed is an issue because not everybody wants to drive like a maniac or has a car that is able to drive at these insane speeds.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: Judge: Town's speeding cameras are '3 Card Monty' scam

    Quote Originally Posted by radcen View Post
    The part in red is my primary objection. (There are others, too)

    It doesn't help that the company that runs our local camera system gets paid per ticket, which IMO only serves to encourage dishonesty. I don't think law enforcement should should be contracted out privately at all to begin with, but if it has to be it should be done on a flat fee basis, whether the camera cites one motorist or 1000.
    Several years ago I became involved on the local level with city government over the issue of RLC. The city was proposing to put them in. I grew up in this town and know several of the commissioners. I was working with the city PD on what was proposed.

    It turns out, the system is driven by the company, in this case ATS. The politicians are lobbied by the company. The city just north of us was also being lobbied. Anyway, I was briefed by 2 different police officers in charge of the program that was being proposed to the city.

    In terms of generating revenue in the ideal design configuration, the system is like shooting fish in a barrel. It's a sure thing. Like the house in a gambling place, the system is rigged in favor of making tons of money on such a system. It is a statistical certainty that a certain number of people will be caught in the box on any given day. I think I was told the ideal situation--heavy traffic and good intersection, could generate 5 offenses an hour. Very lucrative.

    So we fought the proposal and eventually won. Once people understood what was happening they were against it. Also, state government changed the rules, and it became not nearly as lucrative, so the city abandoned the plan. ATS guys were mad...

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    Re: Judge: Town's speeding cameras are '3 Card Monty' scam

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Well, then you are forgetting the technical aspect of the car and the performance of other cars. If the speed between users of the autobahn is too great, accidents will happen and be more dramatic and deadly than with speeds of 85 miles an hour.

    For example, if someone driving 85 miles an hour wants to pass a truck driving 60 miles an hour he will look in his mirrors and see a car a long ways back, thinking it is safe he starts passing the truck. Unfortunately, if no speed limits exists (like on some parts of the Autobahn) and the driver is driving upward of 125 miles (155 miles has also been driven on the autobahn, and faster), accidents will happen.

    If you know that logically the driver coming up behind is at most 10 to 15 miles faster than you, and not driving 40 to 80 miles faster than you, you can gue-estimate how safe you are in you attempt to pass the car you want to pass. If however the driver coming up behind you is 80 miles faster than your car will be on your tail in seconds flat and may or not be able to break in time to not plow into you, this will most likely at that speed be enough to kill you in 2 seconds flat.

    Speed is an issue because not everybody wants to drive like a maniac or has a car that is able to drive at these insane speeds.
    you are arguing that many motorists are too underskilled to drive at a high rate of speed

    notice how that differs from my argument that the interstates are (often) designed to be driven at 100 mph
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    once you're over the hill you begin to pick up speed

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