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Thread: White House admits it can't kill Americans with drones in US

  1. #141
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    Re: White House admits it can't kill Americans with drones in US

    Quote Originally Posted by TML View Post
    Yes, that is absurd (especially as they sat in a cafe, with innocent people), and a clear violation of the constitutional powers afforded to the President, and a violation of the Article 3 Section 3 Clause 1 & 2
    Collateral damage is a fact of war. The Allies could not have defeated Hitler and the Axis of powers or Tojo without inflicting a certain amount of unfortunate collateral damage. When politicians bind the hands of the military the result is Afghanistan. Almost 12 years later and the Taliban is biding their time instead of taking a dirt nap.
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

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    Re: White House admits it can't kill Americans with drones in US

    Quote Originally Posted by TML View Post
    The error in your claim is that, as even you agreed, the War Powers Act which gave that power to the president in the first place was unconstitutional, thus, the resolution was to remedy that over extension of power, and because it was meant to return the power unconstitutionally afforded to the President, and back to Congress, the resolution was therefore pursuant to the Constitution and valid only in the face of the War Powers Act. Had the War Powers Act never existed, then yes, the Resolution would be unconstitutional... indeed, in fact, it would have never even been needed.



    Then I will, as above, point you to Article 3 Section 3.
    I will point you to US Code - Section 1481: Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized citizen; voluntary action; burden of proof; presumptions.
    a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality -
    (3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if (A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States. or
    (7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

  3. #143
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    Re: White House admits it can't kill Americans with drones in US

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    If the USA is attacked, that is to say, if there is an act of war against the USA, then a state of war exists. It is difficult to think of circumstances under which the President would fail to act regardless of what Congress did. I suppose Congress could refuse to fund the defense effort if it was hell bent on not mounting a defense.

    The Constitution vests the President with the powers of Commander in Chief of the armed forces and places no limits on those powers beyond having to go to Congress for funding. Article 3 Section 3 does not in any way prevent the President from using his authority in war making, including in dealing with foreign combatants who used to be American citizens. Unless such a person is criminally charged he is not to be convicted as a criminal or a traitor but rather is a combatant and will not be hung but rather sent back to his adopted country or some such when hostilities have ceased.
    I agree to the Presidents power to repel sudden attacks, but to cite Article II, Section 2, claiming that the Constitution places no limits on this power beyond having to go to Congress for funding, ignores Article 1 Section 8 Clause 11 which vests the power to declare war with the Congress. That means that outside of reacting to a real, sudden, attack the President does not have the authority to initiate hostilities (which would include preventive assassination against accused plotters, real or imagined) perpetually without a declaration of war from Congress. The President does not have the power to convict, and subsequently kill, an American citizen abroad (or even on American soil) accused (especially if not accused) of treason, if they just sitting in a café not engaged in active combat.

    “The constitution supposes, what the History of all Governments demonstrates, that the Executive is the branch of power most interested in war, and most prone to it. It has accordingly with studied care vested the question of war in the Legislature.” – James Madison

    “There can hardly be room for doubt that the framers of the constitution, when they vested in Congress the power to declare war, never imagined that they were leaving it to the executive to use the military and naval forces of the United States all over the world for the purpose of actually coercing other nations, occupying their territory, and killing their soldiers and citizens, all according to his own notions of the fitness of things, as long as he refrained from calling his action war or persisted in calling it peace.” - John Bassett Moore

    The topic of discussion regards the targeting of American citizens, on American soil and what constitutes such a person considered to be in combat.

  4. #144
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    Re: White House admits it can't kill Americans with drones in US

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    Collateral damage is a fact of war. The Allies could not have defeated Hitler and the Axis of powers or Tojo without inflicting a certain amount of unfortunate collateral damage. When politicians bind the hands of the military the result is Afghanistan. Almost 12 years later and the Taliban is biding their time instead of taking a dirt nap.
    But we are not at war, nor has war been clearly declared, except rhetorically against a tactic (terrorism). Under the auspices of such war the United States is coercing other nations, occupying their territory, and killing their soldiers and citizens, all according to the Presidents own notions to treat the world as a battlefield. I hardly think the perpetual war in Afghanistan is due to binding the hands of Congress who has the power to declare war, and more because of imperialist hegemony policies. After all… we are the ones who trained the Taliban and armed them in order to once fight against Russia.
    Last edited by TML; 03-09-13 at 06:02 PM.

  5. #145
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    Re: White House admits it can't kill Americans with drones in US

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    I will point you to US Code - Section 1481: Loss of nationality by native-born or naturalized citizen; voluntary action; burden of proof; presumptions.
    a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality -
    (3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if (A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States. or
    (7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States, violating or conspiring to violate any of the provisions of section 2383 of title 18
    Article 3 Section 3 defines treason and is the only place where the standards for conviction are put forth in the Constitution itself before that section of code is applicable.

  6. #146
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    Re: White House admits it can't kill Americans with drones in US

    Quote Originally Posted by TML View Post
    But we are not at war, nor has war been clearly declared, except rhetorically against a tactic (terrorism). Under the auspices of such war the United States is coercing other nations, occupying their territory, and killing their soldiers and citizens, all according to the Presidents own notions to treat the world as a battlefield. I hardly think the perpetual war in Afghanistan is due to binding the hands of Congress who has the power to declare war, and more because of imperialist hegemony policies. After all… we are the ones who trained the Taliban and armed them in order to once fight against Russia.
    How soon we forget. We are to blame, right? Our chickens have come home to roost, right? Another of the blame America first crowd has joined DP. Welcome to the forum, I think. I do agree that terrorism is a tactic like blitzkrieg , I have been saying that for years. I believe we should call our enemy by their true identity, Islamist or Islamic extremist or Islamic jihadist. We are at war with Islamic extremism. In fact Islamic extremist including al Qaeda but not limited to al Qaeda declared war on the US and the rest of the western world in order to force us to conform to Islam, be subjugated, or be killed. And to establish a global Islamic Caliphate.
    Last edited by SgtRock; 03-09-13 at 09:19 PM.
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

  7. #147
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    Re: White House admits it can't kill Americans with drones in US

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    How soon we forget. We are to blame, right? Our chickens have come home to roost, right? Another of the blame America first crowd has joined DP. Welcome to the forum, I think. I do agree that terrorism is a tactic like blitzkrieg , I have been saying that for years. I believe we should call our enemy by their true identity, Islamist or Islamic extremist or Islamic jihadist. We are at war with Islamic extremism. In fact Islamic extremist including al Qaeda but not limited to al Qaeda declared war on the US and the rest of the western world in order to force us to conform to Islam, be subjugated, or be killed. And to establish a global Islamic Caliphate.
    While this goes extremely off the OP topic of discussion, I will respond; it’s not about blaming America first; it’s about understanding history, human nature, and the relation between cause and effect from an objective standpoint.

    Understand that claiming a religious group, in fact an entire religion, as our enemy is as vague - and as foolish - as claiming our enemy is terrorism. By that measure, any Muslim throughout the world, whether they actually have a country or not, are viewed insensibly as a possible terrorist/enemy.

    The western world has held imperialist policies within the Middle East for more than half a century – long before any Muslim uttered the words Jihad – and they have ultimately, and expectantly, called these policies oppressive. We can look at the history of Iran for a very good example of this. Had the United States not ousted the democratically elected Prime Minister Mossadegh in 1953 in order to put the oppressive Shaw back in power, the Iranian Revolution of 1979 would never have happened, and Iran would not be under a theocracy today.
    Now look at today as we oust secular governments, arming those same Islamists we claim we are at war with, only to have them turn their guns on us – Exhibit A: Lybia and Syira. These ideas of declaring war on us in order to conform us, subjugate us, or kill us, are the product of fear mongering at its finest and a lack of understanding ones claimed enemy. These are arbitrary views similar to the Crusaders who are religious zealots themselves, when the answer to the conflict is to simply leave them the hell alone.

    To attempt bringing this back to some semblance of the topic…. “If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy” – James Madison. This was rather prophetic wisdom, as we now contemplate the Constitutional legality, and morality, of targeting American citizens on American soil, citing the prevention of a terrorist attack by Islamic extremist shadow bogeymen behind every blade of grass.

    It’s time to end this paranoid nonsense

    P.S. Thank you for welcoming me to the site, I think
    Last edited by TML; 03-10-13 at 12:39 PM.

  8. #148
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    Re: White House admits it can't kill Americans with drones in US

    Quote Originally Posted by TML View Post
    While this goes extremely off the OP topic of discussion, I will respond; it’s not about blaming America first; it’s about understanding history, human nature, and the relation between cause and effect from an objective standpoint.

    Understand that claiming a religious group, in fact an entire religion, as our enemy is as vague - and as foolish - as claiming our enemy is terrorism. By that measure, any Muslim throughout the world, whether they actually have a country or not, are viewed insensibly as a possible terrorist/enemy.

    The western world has held imperialist policies within the Middle East for more than half a century – long before any Muslim uttered the words Jihad – and they have ultimately, and expectantly, called these policies oppressive. We can look at the history of Iran for a very good example of this. Had the United States not ousted the democratically elected Prime Minister Mossadegh in 1953 in order to put the oppressive Shaw back in power, the Iranian Revolution of 1979 would never have happened, and Iran would not be under a theocracy today.
    Now look at today as we oust secular governments, arming those same Islamists we claim we are at war with, only to have them turn their guns on us – Exhibit A: Lybia and Syira. These ideas of declaring war on us in order to conform us, subjugate us, or kill us, are the product of fear mongering at its finest and a lack of understanding ones claimed enemy. These are arbitrary views similar to the Crusaders who are religious zealots themselves, when the answer to the conflict is to simply leave them the hell alone.

    To attempt bringing this back to some semblance of the topic…. “If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy” – James Madison. This was rather prophetic wisdom, as we now contemplate the Constitutional legality, and morality, of targeting American citizens on American soil, citing the prevention of a terrorist attack by Islamic extremist shadow bogeymen behind every blade of grass.

    It’s time to end this paranoid nonsense

    P.S. Thank you for welcoming me to the site, I think
    I am a fool. I have been so wrong, it is America who brought the wrath of the freedom fighters. They are attempting to fight back against oppressive imperialist aggression. Fighting for Allah and his Messenger Muhammad, peace be upon him. Bush ordered the heroic soldiers of Allah to fly commercial aircraft into the WTC and Pentagon. Bush did this of course under the supervision of the puppet masters the filthy Jews, apes and pigs everyone of them. Bush did this so he would have an excuse to invade Iraq. Thank you TML for helping me to see the light. All these years I have misunderstood the jihadist, I mean Allah's freedom fighters. They truly are fighting for a just cause. When they say, and they do say (ask me to post documented proof and I will) that if we (the west or anyone for that matter) do not convert to Islam that they will kill us I am misunderstanding them (the freedom fighters). I should not take them at their word. They really want to coexist in peace with us and the other religious peoples of the world. I am so thankful that you have joined DP and that you with all your exalted wisdom have set me straight. Now I understand why all those people had to die on 9-11. It was all part of Allah's plan to force us to invade Afghanistan and Iraq so his freedom fighters could die for his cause. After all dying as a soldier while fighting for Allah is the way to honor.
    Last edited by SgtRock; 03-10-13 at 05:54 PM.
    When America is strong the world is calm, When America is weak tyrants and terrorist slaughter the meek. ~ SgtRock

  9. #149
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    Re: White House admits it can't kill Americans with drones in US

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    yes, there was more of a point for him to address the death star question than to answer the republicans. There is nothing the guy can say that would make the right wing happy. Even if he resigned they would complain about something. You got your answer and it was no. rand paul pissed away his time over a statement that was pretty obvious. Actually i guess he didn't pee for 13 hours supposedly, but you get the jist of it. really, you got the exact answer you wanted from a stunt that delayed a senate appointment for no reason at all aside from spoiled brat politics and you are still not happy? It just shows how petty this all is and that you don't even care about the issues you claim to. this is just about complaining about obama. What is worse is it is not even a good reason to complain, and there are many actual good reasons to complain.
    I think this would have not gotten a response at all had it not been for Paul's filibuster. He said his filibuster was to bring attention to the issue. I guess he did. We can only hope due process of law for Americans, at least on our soil, survives for a while longer. I do, however, believe it is a travesty that our president will bring foreigners here to stand trial in our courts, yet will order a hit on an American citizen even in a country where we are not at war.
    Redneck, hillbilly, fundie, Bible thumper, cracker, split tails, geezer, loon, xenophobe, islamaphobe, and homophobe are not words of tolerance.

  10. #150
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    Re: White House admits it can't kill Americans with drones in US

    Quote Originally Posted by SgtRock View Post
    I am a fool. I have been so wrong, it is America who brought the wrath of the freedom fighters. They are attempting to fight back against oppressive imperialist aggression. Fighting for Allah and his Messenger Muhammad, peace be upon him. Bush ordered the heroic soldiers of Allah to fly commercial aircraft into the WTC and Pentagon. Bush did this of course under the supervision of the puppet masters the filthy Jews, apes and pigs everyone of them. Bush did this so he would have an excuse to invade Iraq. Thank you TML for helping me to see the light. All these years I have misunderstood the jihadist, I mean Allah's freedom fighters. They truly are fighting for a just cause. When they say, and they do say (ask me to post documented proof and I will) that if we (the west or anyone for that matter) do not convert to Islam that they will kill us I am misunderstanding them (the freedom fighters). I should not take them at their word. They really want to coexist in peace with us and the other religious peoples of the world. I am so thankful that you have joined DP and that you with all your exalted wisdom have set me straight. Now I understand why all those people had to die on 9-11. It was all part of Allah's plan to force us to invade Afghanistan and Iraq so his freedom fighters could die for his cause. After all dying as a soldier while fighting for Allah is the way to honor.
    Seen any black helicopters outside your windows lately? That is about as paranoid a post as I have ever seen on the internet.
    Redneck, hillbilly, fundie, Bible thumper, cracker, split tails, geezer, loon, xenophobe, islamaphobe, and homophobe are not words of tolerance.

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