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Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

Risky Thicket said:
What? LOL! Grant, that's the point. Zefs are not counted.
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So these people aren't humans?
United States Census - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Certain American citizens living overseas are specifically excluded from being counted in the census even though they may vote. Only Americans living abroad who are "Federal employees (military and civilian) and their dependents living overseas with them" are counted. "Private U.S. citizens living abroad who are not affiliated with the Federal government (either as employees or their dependents) will not be included in the overseas counts.
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Grant said:
Is brain activity the threshold of when babies might now be aborted? It seems the goal posts keep getting moved.
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Well, persons are not aborted.
I call fetuses fetuses because that is the proper term for that stage of development.

Actually the limit of viability is currently 24 weeks gestation. The limit of viability has not changed in the last 12 years.
In the Roe vs Wade decision they set viability about 24 to 28 weeks gestation.

Consciousness takes place about 24 weeks weeks gestation. So the time frame is the same and the goal posts have really not been moved.
 
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Risky Thicket said:
Private US citizens living abroad are related to a zygote, how?
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Grant said:
Do you need to be included in the US Census before you are a human being??? If you have a copy of this law could you submit a link?
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Risky Thicket said:
What? LOL! Grant, that's the point. Zefs are not counted.
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Private US citizens living abroad are not counted either. Your argument was:

1. Zefs are not counted in the census
2. Therefore they are not human

In order for your conclusion to be valid, private US citizens living abroad can't be humans because they are also not counted.
 
Pilot said:
Private US citizens living abroad are not counted either. Your argument was:

1. Zefs are not counted in the census
2. Therefore they are not human

In order for your conclusion to be valid, private US citizens living abroad can't be humans because they are also not counted.
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They are counted. Private citizens abroad pay US taxes. They are not counted in US Census because they don't live in the US.
 
Pilot said:
Private US citizens living abroad are not counted either. Your argument was:

1. Zefs are not counted in the census
2. Therefore they are not human

In order for your conclusion to be valid, private US citizens living abroad can't be humans because they are also not counted.
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I think you are confusing the term person with the term human.

The U.S. Census figures are based on actual counts of persons dwelling in U.S. residential structures.
 
minnie616 said:
I think you are confusing the term person with the term human.

The U.S. Census figures are based on actual counts of persons dwelling in U.S. residential structures.
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I'm the one disagreeing with this. Shouldn't this post be directed at Risky Thicket, who made that claim?
 
Pilot said:
Huh? Which is it?
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Both.

US citizens abroad are counted as US citizens and have to pay taxes.

The US census counts citizebn living in the US so they can allocate Congressional seats (congressional apportionment), electoral votes, and government program funding.
 
sangha said:
Now you are contradicting yourself. You said that the govt has only those powers that the constitution has authorized.

Now, you're saying that the govt has the power to protect peoples right to life, even though you haven't shown where the constitution grants such a power.
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is not the federal and state government to see that the natural rights of the people are protected? because the founders say we an unalienable rights....is not that why both governments have constitutions, which guarantee...protection for life, liberty, and property, ...which the 5th amendment protects.

again as Madison says" if men were angels, no government would be necessary", ...but because men are not angels, governments create laws to protect people's life liberty, and their property.
 
Pilot said:
I'm the one disagreeing with this. Shouldn't this post be directed at Risky Thicket, who made that claim?
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Risky Thicket used the word person not human.

Originally Posted by Risky Thicket
1. How is that reported in the US Census?

2. Do zefs count as a person in state and federal income tax deductions?
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ernst barkmann said:
is not the federal and state government to see that the natural rights of the people are protected? because the founders say we an unalienable rights....is not that why both governments have constitutions, which guarantee...protection for life, liberty, and property, ...which the 5th amendment protects.

again as Madison says" if men were angels, no government would be necessary", ...but because men are not angels, governments create laws to protect people's life liberty, and their property.
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Please feel free to start your own thread about natural rights.

This thread is about abortions.
 
minnie616 said:
Risky Thicket used the word person not human.
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He was asked "Do you need to be included in the US Census before you are a human being", and responded "that's the point Zefs are not counted."

I took that as confirming the statement he replied to.
 
minnie616 said:
Well, persons are not aborted.
I call fetuses fetuses because that is the proper term for that stage of development.
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I have never heard a mother describe the life within her a 'a fetus'.

Actually the limit of viability is currently 24 weeks gestation. The limit of viability has not changed in the last 12 years.
In the Roe vs Wade decision they set viability about 24 to 28 weeks gestation.Consciousness takes place about 24 weeks weeks gestation. So the time frame is the same and the goal posts have really not been moved.
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But what has 'viability' got to do with it? Does a woman's right to privacy disappear from one week to the next? Is her 'choice' removed? Is it no longer her body?

What really lies at the bottom of all this is the semantics, so we can pretend it's not a human being we're dealing with, or a 'person', or is doesn't have a functioning brain anyway, or any number of things. All of these euphemisms are being used to hide something ugly and, I believe, immoral. We are murdering innocent life. That's it.

Nonetheless, I still believe abortion should be legal. But I also believe that the issue is hugely serious and one that should be dealt with honestly and openly and be recognized for what it really is.
 
Pilot said:
No involvement? You mean anyone should be able to open an abortion clinic from their home, and perform abortions without any medical training?
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HELL YEAH! Coat hanger abortions over here, just follow me into the alley!
 
Cyrylek said:
Good.

I mean, it may be 12 weeks, or 14, or 18. But pretending that there's no matter of human life involved, even as the fetus steadily acquires human features - that is more illogical - and eventually much more immoral - than pretending that a zygote is a human being.

This merely brings Arkansas within the civilized norm: abortion on demand is illegal after 12 weeks in Austria, Belgium, Czech Republic (yes, the godless, jolly Czech Republic), Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Italy, Poland....
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The fetus doesn't have brain activity until twenty weeks. That is the only logical point involved here. You cannot force your moral beliefs down someone else's throat. And the European abortion laws are much more complicated than you make them out to be.
 
tonydanza said:
The fetus doesn't have brain activity until twenty weeks. That is the only logical point involved here. You cannot force your moral beliefs down someone else's throat. And the European abortion laws are much more complicated than you make them out to be.
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Then why is 20 weeks logical? What if my moral beliefs are that any point before birth is okay? You can just shove your morals down my throat and tell me 20 weeks?
 
Pilot said:
Then why is 20 weeks logical? What if my moral beliefs are that any point before birth is okay? You can just shove your morals down my throat and tell me 20 weeks?
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No, we're shoving science, logic, fact down your throat. If your beliefs don't jive up with FACT, yeah, you lose.
 
tonydanza said:
No, we're shoving science, logic, fact down your throat. If your beliefs don't jive up with FACT, yeah, you lose.
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But "I" don't have a moral objection to brain activity. Who are you to tell me aborting a baby with brain activity is immoral?
 
Grant said:
?...

But what has 'viability' got to do with it? ...
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It is at the limit of viability the fetus becomes a potential person.
Roe vs. Wade gave states were given a compelling interest in the " potential person " at viability but not ban abortions if the woman's health or life were at risk.

When the fetus reaches viability it has developed to the point it can survive outside of womb .
It may or may not need medical help and it will need care but it is not biologically attached to and dependent on the woman and only that woman. A doctor,nurse,grandparent,adoptive parent, care giver etc can keep it warm, fed it, hold it love it etc.
 
Pilot said:
But "I" don't have a moral objection to brain activity. Who are you to tell me aborting a baby with brain activity is immoral?
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You just stated earlier that you do...
 
tonydanza said:
You just stated earlier that you do...
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I do, I'm posing a hypothetical to show how your argument collapses when given further thought. Hence the quotation marks when I said "I".
 
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