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Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

Thanks Minnie. Do you have some biblical or even scientific basis for forming your opinion as to when a fetus is a person?

Is the Bible pro-choice?

In the debate over abortion, religious groups have tended to take the pro-life side. But in recent years, we have seen a number of religious groups coming forward with a pro-choice position. These include such groups as Catholics for Choice, the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, etc.
What does the Bible really have to say about abortion?1

As my source for the Christian pro-choice view, I took two articles available on the Internet:2 Is the Fetus a Person, by Dr Roy Bowen Ward of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, and Abortion is Not a Sin, by Poppy Dixon of Adult Christianity.


The Biblical pro-choice argument -- in summary
The general argument of these two articles (and of course many other similar ones) is essentially this:
Nowhere does the Bible specifically prohibit or condemn abortion.

Furthermore, the Bible connects life with breath. As a fetus does not breathe, therefore it is not truly alive, and so it is meaningless to talk of killing it.


They go on to rebut several arguments that pro-lifers make to demonstrate that the Bible talks about unborn babies as people. They claim that in each case, the Biblical passage is better understood as referring to the unborn simply as potential people.

Finally, Poppy goes on to argue that the pro-life position is blasphemous. God gives life, she claims, when he causes the newborn baby to begin breathing. To claim that life is given through the union of sperm and egg is to claim that human beings are giving life rather than God.

Let's examine these arguments in more detail.
<SNIP>

The Biblical Pro-Choice Position


Being Pro-choice is firmly grounded in the Bible.
Who is pro-choice and religious?

Denominations with official and long-standing pro-choice positions include the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Episcopal Church, the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ, the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations, and Reform and Conservative Judaism. These organizations have a diversity of views about abortion and recognize it as a morally complex decision that must be made by the person most affected--the woman.

Among religious groups, the pro-choice position is nuanced, recognizing that most people believe abortion--as well as bearing children-are matters for individual conscience, not government or religious mandate. Pro-choice denominations don't seek to impose their views on others or to make them law.[ They recognize that in our pluralistic society, politicians must not be allowed to impose laws about childbearing based on any particular belief about when life begins. The notion that life begins at the moment of conception is a belief held by some, but not all, religious groups.

In fact, the Bible never mentions abortion and does not deal with the question of when life begins. Genesis 2:7 (God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being") refers to the specific, unique event of the creation of Adam out of the earth. It says nothing about the process of conception, pregnancy, and birth.

[SIZE=]
The Book of Exodus clearly indicates that the fetus does not have the same legal status as a person (Chapter 21:22-23). That verse indicates that if a man pushes a pregnant woman and she then miscarries, he is required only to pay a fine. If the fetus were considered a full person, he would be punished more severely as though he had taken a life. [Editor's note: Read more detailed pro-choice and pro-life analyses of Exodus 21.][/SIZE]

<SNIP>
Christians and Jews agree that all life is sacred--the life of a woman as well as the potential life of a fetus.
[/B]Many Protestant Christians emphasize the New Testament's teaching of the priesthood of all believers, meaning that everyone has direct access to God and therefore the ability to do God's will. [/B]

The Biblical Basis for Being Pro-Choice: Bible, abortion, Christians, religion - Beliefnet.com
 
Wrong

None of the laws you cited change the finding that under the constitution, the unborn are not persons and therefore have no right to life
Laws don't change rulings. SCOTUS has to revisit Roe in order for Roe to be changed. Don't you know how the US government works?
 
Laws don't change rulings. SCOTUS has to revisit Roe in order for Roe to be changed. Don't you know how the US government works?

Right. Only SCOTUS can overturn RvW.

Until it does, I am right; Under the law, the unborn are not persons
 
They have already decided that the constitutions use of the word person does not include the unborn
40 years ago.

You're just chasing your tail now, circular logic...and I see someone is bringing the bible into this thread....now I remember why I stopped posting in this forum.

Have fun, non of you are addressing the causes for abortion so you're all wrong anyway...much like everyone in the Gun control forum focusing on the gun instead of what causes people to become murderers... later :2wave:
 
They do in this context where the law at discussion limits the permitted abortion window. But you go on as usual and ignore anything that doesn't fit your script.
It is a new state law that most likely will be struck down.
 
40 years ago.

Right

And the constitution was written more than 200 years ago

You're just chasing your tail now, circular logic...and I see someone is bringing the bible into this thread....now I remember why I stopped posting in this forum.

Have fun, non of you are addressing the causes for abortion so you're all wrong anyway...much like everyone in the Gun control forum focusing on the gun instead of what causes people to become murderers... later :2wave:

Not sure what that means, but don't worry; I accept your surrender! :2wave:
 
No, they don't

State laws do not overturn the constitution.

The Constitution is silent on the definition of person. According to Roe v Wade the states may decide what to allow after viability is reached as long as they maintain an exception for the health of the mother. The states even get to choose the doctors that will make that health of the mother determination. Viability the SCOTUS ballparked for the time of the decision but noted as medical science improved that figure may naturally be adjusted downward.
 
Roe v Wade



The perp is not allowed to perform an abortion on a woman without that womans consent.

You are aware that a SCOTUS decision can be overturned right? Roe dealt with the privacy of a woman, and encompassed the abortion question in murky, and questionable language that is being dealt with constantly. Sooner, or later the question of women killing the unborn out of convenience will be addressed. Right now, it may be legal to kill the unborn, but as we make laws that hold one standard for perpetrators of crime, and a different standard to those that kill the unborn because of irresponsibility, and moral vacuousness can only be seen clearly for what it is, gross hypocrisy.
 
Right. Only SCOTUS can overturn RvW.

Until it does, I am right; Under the law, the unborn are not persons

Roe v Wade does NOT say that. It simply allows for their legal killing during the window before viability.
 
The Constitution is silent on the definition of person. According to Roe v Wade the states may decide what to allow after viability is reached as long as they maintain an exception for the health of the mother. The states even get to choose the doctors that will make that health of the mother determination. Viability the SCOTUS ballparked for the time of the decision but noted as medical science improved that figure may naturally be adjusted downward.

The constitution is not a dictionary. It doesn't define anything.
 
You are aware that a SCOTUS decision can be overturned right? Roe dealt with the privacy of a woman, and encompassed the abortion question in murky, and questionable language that is being dealt with constantly. Sooner, or later the question of women killing the unborn out of convenience will be addressed. Right now, it may be legal to kill the unborn, but as we make laws that hold one standard for perpetrators of crime, and a different standard to those that kill the unborn because of irresponsibility, and moral vacuousness can only be seen clearly for what it is, gross hypocrisy.

You are aware that RvW has not been overturned, right?

RvW dealt with several arguments, not just the privacy of a woman and the language they used is extremely clear.

And the constitution does not grant the govt the power to enforce morality, particularly the deranged morality of the religious right
 
Roe v Wade does NOT say that. It simply allows for their legal killing during the window before viability.

I most certainly does say that. Clearly and explicitely

In short, the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons - Roe v Wade

And it allows for abortions up until the moment of birth. Under RvW, abortions can not be banned. Not ever.
 
The constitution is not a dictionary. It doesn't define anything.

I disagree. It certainly is not a dictionary, but it does define many things.

define |diˈfīn| verb
1. state or describe exactly the nature, scope, or meaning of:
2. mark out the boundary or limits of: (as adj. defined)
 
The constitution is not a dictionary. It doesn't define anything.

And yet here you are assuming it does:

sangha said:
None of the laws you cited change the finding that under the constitution, the unborn are not persons and therefore have no right to life

Are you now saying the justices whom you mistakenly believe decided personhood with Roe v Wade making that definition up out of wholecloth?
 
The constitution is not a dictionary. It doesn't define anything.

Oh, it defines a lot.

Do you really need examples?

The simple fact you can have an opinion without being murdered by the government is a prime example. You definitely have the right to free speech.

But I suppose that was the whole point of the Bill of Rights and Constitution as a whole - to define "stuff."

Yeah....
 
I disagree. It certainly is not a dictionary, but it does define many things.

define |diˈfīn| verb
1. state or describe exactly the nature, scope, or meaning of:
2. mark out the boundary or limits of: (as adj. defined)

And when it comes to "defining" the law, the constitution gives that power to SCOTUS.
 
... Viability the SCOTUS ballparked for the time of the decision but noted as medical science improved that figure may naturally be adjusted downward.

The limit of viabilty is 24 weeks gesrtation and has remained unchanged for the last 12 years.

From wiki:
The limit of viability is the gestational age at which a prematurely born fetus/infant has a 50% chance of long-term survival outside its mother's womb. With the support of neonatal intensive care units, the limit of viability in the developed world has declined since 50 years ago, but has remained unchanged in the last 12 years.[8][9]

Currently the limit of viability is considered to be around 24 weeks although the incidence of major disabilities remains high at this point.

[10][11] Neonatologists generally would not provide intensive care at 23 weeks, but would from 26 weeks.[12][13]

During the past several decades, neonatal care has improved with advances in medical science, and therefore the limit of viability has moved earlier.[14] As of 2006, the two youngest children to survive premature birth are thought to be James Elgin Gill (born on 20 May 1987 in Ottawa, Canada, at 21 weeks and 5 days gestational age),[15][16] and Amillia Taylor (born on 24 October 2006 in Miami, Florida, at 21 weeks and 6 days gestational age).[17][18] Both children were born just under 22 weeks from fertilization, or a few days past the midpoint of an average full-term pregnancy.

Amillia Taylor is also often cited as the most-premature baby.[17] She was born on 24 October 2006 in Miami, Florida, at 21 weeks and 6 days gestation.[19] At birth, she was 9 inches (22.86 cm) long and weighed 10 ounces (283 grams).[17] She suffered digestive and respiratory problems, together with a brain hemorrhage. She was discharged from the Baptist Children's Hospital on 20 February 2007.[17]


Fetal viability - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Oh, it defines a lot.

Do you really need examples?

The simple fact you can have an opinion without being murdered by the government is a prime example. You definitely have the right to free speech.

But I suppose that was the whole point of the Bill of Rights and Constitution as a whole - to define "stuff."

Yeah....

The constitution does not define "free", "speech" or the term "free speech".
 
I most certainly does say that. Clearly and explicitely



And it allows for abortions up until the moment of birth. Under RvW, abortions can not be banned. Not ever.

Again, untrue. States may regulate abortion (as in ban) after viability (again a definition the court spun out of wholecloth). Your statement is debunked by the states that have laws banning late term abortion (and have been upheld).

The United States Supreme Court decisions on abortion, including Roe v. Wade, allow states to impose more restrictions on post-viability abortions than during the earlier stages of pregnancy.

As of April 2007, 36 states had bans on late-term abortions that were not facially unconstitutional (i.e. banning all abortions) or enjoined by court order.[18] In addition, the Supreme Court in the case of Gonzales v. Carhart ruled that Congress may ban certain late-term abortion techniques, "both previability and postviability".

The Supreme Court has held that bans must include exceptions for threats to the woman's life, physical health, and mental health, but four states allow late-term abortions only when the woman's life is at risk; four allow them when the woman's life or physical health is at risk, but use a definition of health that pro-choice organizations believe is impermissibly narrow.[18] Assuming that one of these state bans is constitutionally flawed, then that does not necessarily mean that the entire ban would be struck down: "invalidating the statute entirely is not always necessary or justified, for lower courts may be able to render narrower declaratory and injunctive relief."[19]

Also, 13 states prohibit abortion after a certain number of weeks' gestation (usually 24 weeks).[18] The U.S. Supreme Court held in Webster v. Reproductive Health Services that a statute may create "a presumption of viability" after a certain number of weeks, in which case the physician must be given an opportunity to rebut the presumption by performing tests.[20] Therefore, those 13 states must provide that opportunity. Because this provision is not explicitly written into these 13 laws, as it was in the Missouri law examined in Webster, pro-choice organizations believe that such a state law is unconstitutional, but only "to the extent that it prohibits pre-viability abortions".[21]

Ten states require a second physician to approve.[18] The U.S. Supreme Court struck down a requirement of "confirmation by two other physicians" (rather than one other physician) because "acquiescence by co-practitioners has no rational connection with a patient's needs and unduly infringes on the physician's right to practice".[22] Pro-choice organizations such as the Guttmacher Institute therefore interpret some of these state laws to be unconstitutional, based on these and other Supreme Court rulings, at least to the extent that these state laws require approval of a second or third physician.[18]

Nine states have laws that require a second physician to be present during late-term abortion procedures in order to treat a fetus if born alive.[18] The Court has held that a doctor's right to practice is not infringed by requiring a second physician to be present at abortions performed after viability in order to assist in saving the life of the fetus.[23]

Source
 
And when it comes to "defining" the law, the constitution gives that power to SCOTUS.

Not exactly. The word is "interpret".
 
You are aware that RvW has not been overturned, right?

For the moment, yes.

RvW dealt with several arguments, not just the privacy of a woman and the language they used is extremely clear.

“Nothing is unchangeable but the inherent and unalienable rights of man.”

-Thomas Jefferson

When the term “person” is applied to a particular class of human beings, it is an affirmation of their individual rights. In other words, to be a person is to be protected by a series of God-given rights and constitutional guarantees such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

This terrifies the pro-abortion foes!

They know that if we clearly define the preborn baby as a person, they will have the same right to life as all Americans do!

This then also begs the question, is every human being a person?

There is a very real sense in which the need to answer this second question is, in itself, an absurdity.

What is Personhood? | Personhood USA

The majority opinion in Wade failed to address the question of personhood.

And the constitution does not grant the govt the power to enforce morality, particularly the deranged morality of the religious right

Funny you bring up a character assassination in your description here. See, I would think that rational people would think that the intentional killing of millions of children would be in the "deranged" category.
 
Because by viability they have a good chance of surviving outside the woman's womb with or without medical help.
Also after 6 months there is a much higher risk for the womans life if she has an abortion.

But with the rapid increases in medical knowledge, if viability is the issue, then the State may have the right, with professional input, to put a time limit on when an abortion might take place.
 
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