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Thread: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    So:

    1. You consider us to be more logical an rational than our ancestors.
    2. Abortion is far more regulated and restrictive now.
    3. So, you seem to be saying that laws and restrictions are more logical and rational.
    I'm saying that a woman who 'chooses' to have an abortion...can be very rational and logical. And any law created that protects a woman's right to choose and helps prevent any unnecessary harm to her...is logical and rational.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Welliam Wittier View Post
    Here is the short answer.

    At the time Roe was decided, the court said that there were no laws that treated a human fetus as a 'person.'

    The Federal 'Unborn Victims of Violence Act' and many of the State laws against fetal homicide since - have changed that.

    Unlike the times prior to Roe, we now make it a crime of murder to unjustly kill a child in utero and at any stage of their development.
    You believe that that would be the primary argument used in overturning Roe v. Wade?

    I believe that if that's your premise...I would disagree. Women who are pregnant...and are victims of a physical crime resulting in the death of either her...or the fetus...or both...I argue that a victim of such a crime happened to a woman who "CHOSE" to be pregnant and wanted to give birth "in most cases".

    The federal law regarding the death of child utero...doesn't define that fetus as a legal person. I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    You believe that that would be the primary argument used in overturning Roe v. Wade?

    I believe that if that's your premise...I would disagree. Women who are pregnant...and are victims of a physical crime resulting in the death of either her...or the fetus...or both...I argue that a victim of such a crime happened to a woman who "CHOSE" to be pregnant and wanted to give birth "in most cases".

    The federal law regarding the death of child utero...doesn't define that fetus as a legal person. I think you're barking up the wrong tree.
    By making it a crime of murder, they have defined the victim as a legal 'person.'

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by [B
    Welliam Wittier;1061564500]By making it a crime of murder, they have defined the victim as a legal 'person.[/B]'
    I disagree.

    On April 1, 2004, President Bush signed into law the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, also known as "Laci and Conner's Law." The new law states that any "child in utero" is considered to be a legal victim if injured or killed during the commission of a federal crime of violence. The bills definition of "child in utero" is "a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."
    You do not see the word "person" explicitly made or implied. The S.C. is going to have a hard time molding the given definition into "person".

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    It's not just hard, it's impossible. A woman's body is damaged permanently from pregnancy/childbirth. Every woman may not get ALL of this list of permanent effects, but every woman will get some.

    THE LIZ LIBRARY TABLE OF CONTENTS

    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    loose skin
    permanent weight gain or redistribution
    abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life)
    changes to breasts
    varicose veins
    scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)
    yeah every woman might get some of the insignificant ones listed and not bother with cosmetic surgery because it's insignificant. Every woman WILL NOT get the scary stuff listed if she gets proper prenatal care. Get over your own scare tactics, pregnancy is not a disease.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    I disagree. You do not see the word "person" explicitly made or implied. The S.C. is going to have a hard time molding the given definition into "person".
    It does say child though. Can it be argued that a child is not a person?

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by AmericanWoman76 View Post
    yeah every woman might get some of the insignificant ones listed and not bother with cosmetic surgery because it's insignificant. Every woman WILL NOT get the scary stuff listed if she gets proper prenatal care. Get over your own scare tactics, pregnancy is not a disease.
    It also strongly suggests that women are to be judged by their bodies rather than for other factors.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It does say child though. Can it be argued that a child is not a person?
    In this case...yes. The law only passed because lawmakers didn't want to be misleading in the intent of creating the Unborn Victims Act.

    And please note that the term "child utero" is given a very specific definition in that law.

    Unborn Victims Act Definition: "Child in Utero": "a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."

    Also, written in the Unborn Victims Act - it clearly states that this law was not created for or intended to be a legal instrument used to prosecute woman who have abortions.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Removable Mind View Post
    In this case...yes. The law only passed because lawmakers didn't want to be misleading in the intent of creating the Unborn Victims Act.

    And please note that the term "child utero" is given a very specific definition in that law.

    Unborn Victims Act Definition: "Child in Utero": "a member of the species homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."

    Also, written in the Unborn Victims Act - it clearly states that this law was not created for or intended to be a legal instrument used to prosecute woman who have abortions.
    Whatever the lawmakers intended is not as important as what the words say, and they clearly say "child in utero" and "at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb".

    Thus a child could be in the womb 20 weeks, for example, and legally be considered a child, a person, or a human being.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Whatever the lawmakers intended is not as important as what the words say, and they clearly say "child in utero" and "at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb".

    Thus a child could be in the womb 20 weeks, for example, and legally be considered a child, a person, or a human being.
    Hey, what can I say? I gave you the facts.

    You don't have to agree with the definition included in the Unborn Victims Act. But the Unborn Victims Act very clearly defined the intent for creating that law. And within that law it clearly states that it was NOT CREATED FOR OR INTENDED to be a legal instrument used to prosecute women who have abortions.

    A fetus "at any stage of development"...in the Unborn Victims Act...is simply referred to as "VICTIM"...not a person. The legal definition of "Victim" within the Unborn Victims Act can also be referred to as "Child in Utero"...which is not legally making a fetus a "person". And that point is clearly defined in the Act.

    You don't have to agree with Roe v. Wade. But it does ambiguously stipulates a "Viability Clause"...which in no way states or makes claim that a fetus at any stage of development is considered to be a person.

    So if the language is problematic for you...hey, take it up with the sponsors of that Law.

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