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Thread: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Just the reverse. Viability is a fact, yes, and then we move into morals.
    It is because viability is a fact that we cannot move into the moral argument over abortion. You either allow abortion or you don't - if you allow it then you have to set limits based on certain facts which aren't changing (for a long while yet) such as when the fetus is viable outside the womb because then you are harming someone who can survive unaided outside the womb. I have never had any qualms about calling the bunch of cells created by an egg and sperm a human being because the "personhood" or "human beingness" argument is simply a sideshow to whether that person can survive unaided and if so - whether that survival will harm them or not.

    Studies show that for those born between 20 - 24 weeks, early preterms survival rate after birth is about 9 in 100 at best and even then there is a high chance of serious disability. The only anti abortion argument that can be made in reality is to abolish it altogether but then you simply go back to the old days of *back-room / back alley / back yard / back street abortion with coathangers and similar.

    The reality as I see it is that anyone who is anti 24 weeks is simply trying to bring the limit down piecemeal (They realise a sudden drop to 0 weeks is unlikely to it has to be an incremental process over time.) to a wholesale ban because that is the ultimate end game for those who refuse to acknowledge the facts of viability.

    *back-room / back alley / back yard / back street abortion - if arguing over the term is all anyone has then sorry for them.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    It all depends on when the fetus becomes a human. Most would argue that that does in fact happen before birth. Is the location the only thing that matters? Should the government have no regulations on abortion at nine months?
    Yes. Its location inside someone else's body, where it takes resources, depletes her body, and poses a risk of severe harm or death, is the only thing that matters.

    No born human would be permitted carte blanche to do such a thing. Even if they are somehow unable to understand their actions, or being coerced by a third party, it would still be impermissible, and warrant any action deemed necessary by the person being used against their will.

    What makes a fetus different? If the argument is whether or not they're "people," then under what circumstances would any person be permitted to do something like that against someone's wishes?

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Yes. Its location inside someone else's body, where it takes resources, depletes her body, and poses a risk of severe harm or death, is the only thing that matters.

    No born human would be permitted carte blanche to do such a thing. Even if they are somehow unable to understand their actions, or being coerced by a third party, it would still be impermissible, and warrant any action deemed necessary by the person being used against their will.

    What makes a fetus different? If the argument is whether or not they're "people," then under what circumstances would any person be permitted to do something like that against someone's wishes?
    I think you may have taken this out of context. I was replying to a post about when the government should have involvement. My point was that although there is disagreement over when, there is a time when the government should become involved.

    How about answering the question you quoted: Should the government have no regulations on abortion at nine months?

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    A 'potential' person cannot gain citizenship. You appear befuddled by the term.

    Here ya go.
    Well since a potential person cannot gain citizenship, then it is up to the mother to decide what to do with her body. Thank you for your admittal that a CITIZEN of the U.S. should be able to determine whether or not they should go through with a 9 month pregnancy which is biological, mental, and physical changes to her body without GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE.

    Seems YOU are the one confused here like most pro-lifers.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Well, persons are not aborted.
    I call fetuses fetuses because that is the proper term for that stage of development.

    Actually the limit of viability is currently 24 weeks gestation. The limit of viability has not changed in the last 12 years.
    In the Roe vs Wade decision they set viability about 24 to 28 weeks gestation.

    Consciousness takes place about 24 weeks weeks gestation. So the time frame is the same and the goal posts have really not been moved.
    If "consciousness" is the benchmark, hell, there are some walking, talking adults that would qualify for abortion. :/
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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    If "consciousness" is the benchmark, hell, there are some walking, talking adults that would qualify for abortion. :/
    Don't quit your day job, comedy is not your forte

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    ... it is up to the mother to decide what to do with her body.
    That decision was made the moment she decided to allow herself to commit the act that only can result in the creation of a human life. All of the dancing around terminology designed to dehumanize the baby is only a desperate attempt to console the conscience of those women killing their own babies in the womb.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    That decision was made the moment she decided to allow herself to commit the act that only can result in the creation of a human life. All of the dancing around terminology designed to dehumanize the baby is only a desperate attempt to console the conscience of those women killing their own babies in the womb.
    Ah yes, well that's not how it works in real life. See you like BIG GOVERNMENT to tell a women she should be FORCED to carry to term a baby and go through mental and physical changes while you apply NOTHING of the sort to the man involved during the same 9 months. Until you and others can do that, **** pro-lifers.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Don't quit your day job, comedy is not your forte
    Comedy is subjective, if that is what I was going for, which I wasn't, I wouldn't expect a liberal to get it anyway.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    edited
    Last edited by TheNextEra; 03-12-13 at 10:31 AM.

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