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Thread: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    Then why is 20 weeks logical? What if my moral beliefs are that any point before birth is okay? You can just shove your morals down my throat and tell me 20 weeks?
    No, we're shoving science, logic, fact down your throat. If your beliefs don't jive up with FACT, yeah, you lose.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by tonydanza View Post
    No, we're shoving science, logic, fact down your throat. If your beliefs don't jive up with FACT, yeah, you lose.
    But "I" don't have a moral objection to brain activity. Who are you to tell me aborting a baby with brain activity is immoral?

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    ?...

    But what has 'viability' got to do with it? ...
    It is at the limit of viability the fetus becomes a potential person.
    Roe vs. Wade gave states were given a compelling interest in the " potential person " at viability but not ban abortions if the woman's health or life were at risk.

    When the fetus reaches viability it has developed to the point it can survive outside of womb .
    It may or may not need medical help and it will need care but it is not biologically attached to and dependent on the woman and only that woman. A doctor,nurse,grandparent,adoptive parent, care giver etc can keep it warm, fed it, hold it love it etc.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    But "I" don't have a moral objection to brain activity. Who are you to tell me aborting a baby with brain activity is immoral?
    You just stated earlier that you do...

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by tonydanza View Post
    You just stated earlier that you do...
    I do, I'm posing a hypothetical to show how your argument collapses when given further thought. Hence the quotation marks when I said "I".

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    Huh? Which is it?
    Pilot. Sit down and remain calm. I have some shocking news for you. The US government has more than one department. The following is, apparently for you, a rather complex and confusing reality. I don't have the time to explain the differences between the two agencies and how they function. Get your mom and dad to help you with that.

    US citizens living abroad are not counted by the US Census Bureau in taking the US Census. US citizens living abroad are counted as citizens by the IRS and must pay US taxes. Zefs are counted by neither.
    Last edited by Risky Thicket; 03-11-13 at 07:02 PM. Reason: spelling, as usual










    "When Faith preaches Hate, Blessed are the Doubters." - Amin Maalouf

    When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that person is crazy. ~Dave Barry



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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by tonydanza View Post
    The fetus doesn't have brain activity until twenty weeks. That is the only logical point involved here. You cannot force your moral beliefs down someone else's throat. And the European abortion laws are much more complicated than you make them out to be.
    Depends on what you consider "brain activity". At about 20 weeks, the thalamus is fully formed. "Brain waves" can be detected before that. The recognizable, individual human face does form somewhere between 11 and 14 weeks. Should count for something. Our current understanding of what a mind is and how it works should not be allowed to mutate into murderous self-assurance.

    The European laws are complicated (laws always are). But the gestational limits are there. Abortion on demand, in the absence of any threat to the mother's health or other special circumstances, is not allowed in the jolly, godless Czech Republic or in even more jolly, equally "atheistic" Denmark. It is a fact. Say whatever you wish about Danes and Czechs, but they are among the last peoples on Earth who would allow some "beliefs" to be forced down their throats.

    (Personally, I am limiting my pro-life postion to the thrid trimester; and I am storngly pro-choice for the first one. But if a given society reaches some potentially life-saving consensus for the torturous grey area in-between, I am glad, not frustrated).

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    Then why is 20 weeks logical? What if my moral beliefs are that any point before birth is okay? You can just shove your morals down my throat and tell me 20 weeks?
    It's mostly 24 weeks rather than 20. At 20 weeks a mother can have an anomaly scan which can pick out problems in the fetus that were not apparent before. Also, there is that niggling question of viability that has very little to do with morals and more to do with facts.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    It is at the limit of viability the fetus becomes a potential person.
    In fact a baby becomes a potential person at the moment of conception.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    It's mostly 24 weeks rather than 20. At 20 weeks a mother can have an anomaly scan which can pick out problems in the fetus that were not apparent before. Also, there is that niggling question of viability that has very little to do with morals and more to do with facts.
    Just the reverse. Viability is a fact, yes, and then we move into morals.

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