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Thread: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    I suppose that's why we all come here. However it's mind-boggling how some people just cant get it.

    I understand the counterargument on this issue which is: "don't tell me what I can do with my body" but the issue is so much deeper and philosophical than that, but sadly the general consensus is "don't tell me what I can do with my body" - as if a fetus is a body part like an earlobe.
    Your argument is basically a variation of an ad hom

    The fact that some pro-choicers make a poor argument does not mean that the pro-choice position is wrong. Just as the fact that some anti-choicers make poor argument does not mean that the anti-choice position is wrong

    That's why I won't use your weak post to argue that your anti-choice beliefs are wrong. I can use the facts to do so with much more efficiency
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Whether I (or anyone else) believe in Absolute Truth is irrelevant. The law is not designed for, or intended to, divine the Absolute Truth.

    And if you can't identify exactly when that "moment" of conception occurs, I don't see how you can't state, as a fact, that the moment actually exists.
    Whether or not the law is designed for or intended to divine absolute Truth matters not. But it is incumbent on me, as an enlightened human being, to divine it as well as I am able, and from there to act on it as well as I am able. You others can muck around with relatives.

    I can't say precisely when you were born, but that doesn't mean you don't exist.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Whether I (or anyone else) believe in Absolute Truth is irrelevant. The law is not designed for, or intended to, divine the Absolute Truth.

    And if you can't identify exactly when that "moment" of conception occurs, I don't see how you can't state, as a fact, that the moment actually exists.
    The law absolutely IS intended to "divine" the absolute truth.

    The law is in place to set a standard - that standard being absolute known truth to the society it presides.

    Now, there are plenty of misguided laws - like making it lawful to kill your fetus but not your gardener... We have laws that contradict laws, but that's only because we elected a bunch of idiots to do nothing but write laws. However we do have common sense laws, like not killing people, not stealing not assaulting people.. It's just too bad "don't murder" your unborn child doesn't fall into any of that common sense.

    I suppose the problem is people like you actually believe you can just stretch a law, or you believe a law doesn't apply to you just because you believe you have justified your actions and intent... That's why this country is so screwed.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    I suppose that's why we all come here. However it's mind-boggling how some people just cant get it.

    I understand the counterargument on this issue which is: "don't tell me what I can do with my body" but the issue is so much deeper and philosophical than that, but sadly the general consensus is "don't tell me what I can do with my body" - as if a fetus is a body part like an earlobe.
    It is boggling. I don't know if you have a belief in God or not Nick. But for me, I've lately come to realize that People generally will try to be God. Even those who profess Christianity do it to some extent, including myself. It is our sin if you will. I've come to understand that sin is simply rebellion against God. And for me lately, that, at least in part, is rebellion against or disagreement with the Truth.

    The compelling statement this brings to mind is Pilot saying to Christ "What is truth?" Wow.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    Whether or not the law is designed for or intended to divine absolute Truth matters not.
    WHen it comes to what the law is, it most certainly does matter.

    But it is incumbent on me, as an enlightened human being, to divine it as well as I am able, and from there to act on it as well as I am able. You others can muck around with relatives.

    I can't say precisely when you were born, but that doesn't mean you don't exist.
    You free to hold opinions on matters of truth. There's nothing wrong with that (quite the opposite in fact). However, we live in a nation whose laws are deternined by a legal document known as the constitution, and not by some random individuals philosophical beliefs.

    BTW, as a factuall matter, one need not show when something was created in order to prove that it exists. One need to show proof that it exists. Let me know when you can prove that a "moment of conception" actually exists. The scientific evidence proves that conception is a process, with no clear moment that can be used to mark its' beginning.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    The law absolutely IS intended to "divine" the absolute truth.
    Nonsense. Even in criminal trials, where the consequences are most severe, the standard is "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" and not "absolutely, without any doubt, guilty"

    The law is in place to set a standard - that standard being absolute known truth to the society it presides.

    Now, there are plenty of misguided laws - like making it lawful to kill your fetus but not your gardener... We have laws that contradict laws, but that's only because we elected a bunch of idiots to do nothing but write laws. However we do have common sense laws, like not killing people, not stealing not assaulting people.. It's just too bad "don't murder" your unborn child doesn't fall into any of that common sense.

    I suppose the problem is people like you actually believe you can just stretch a law, or you believe a law doesn't apply to you just because you believe you have justified your actions and intent... That's why this country is so screwed.
    Wrong. Absolute truth has never been used as a legal standard, which is why you can't cite such a standard being used anywhere in the law
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Your argument is basically a variation of an ad hom

    The fact that some pro-choicers make a poor argument does not mean that the pro-choice position is wrong. Just as the fact that some anti-choicers make poor argument does not mean that the anti-choice position is wrong

    That's why I won't use your weak post to argue that your anti-choice beliefs are wrong. I can use the facts to do so with much more efficiency

    See this is the problem with you. You think right and wrong is only a matter of perception and not a standard.

    That's your flaw and the flaws with your arguments.

    You're incapable of understanding right from wrong. In short you're a sociopath. What I'm telling you, and what others have doesn't faze you one bit - you're stuck on your preconceived conclusions and are trying to justify them by bending and stretching rules. You just can't accept the fact murder is wrong because if you did that would make you wrong, so you're going to live your entire life believing murder is subjective just so you can feel you're right and everyone else is wrong. Because this issue really isn't about abortion it's about you selfishly feeling you're right.

    Trust me, I have been there once but I realized I was wrong and changed my ways. I stopped feeling the need to defend a partisan political ideology, or talk massive lies or stretch the law to defend it.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    See this is the problem with you. You think right and wrong is only a matter of perception and not a standard.

    That's your flaw and the flaws with your arguments.

    You're incapable of understanding right from wrong. In short you're a sociopath. What I'm telling you, and what others have doesn't faze you one bit - you're stuck on your preconceived conclusions and are trying to justify them by bending and stretching rules. You just can't accept the fact murder is wrong because if you did that would make you wrong, so you're going to live your entire life believing murder is subjective just so you can feel you're right and everyone else is wrong. Because this issue really isn't about abortion it's about you selfishly feeling you're right.

    Trust me, I have been there once but I realized I was wrong and changed my ways. I stopped feeling the need to defend a partisan political ideology, or talk massive lies or stretch the law to defend it.

    Since I've never said anything about what I believe concerning right and wrong, it would be your dishonest argument that is the problem, coupled with your continued reliance on ad hom arguments, which are inherently fallacious.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    Also - I want to add this:

    These pro-baby killers routinely say: "don't tell me what I can do with my body." That is the equivalent of someone saying "don't tell me I cant shoot some random dude with my gun"..
    .
    I don't say "don't tell me what I can do with my body" because I know the right to privacy is not about what a person can do with their body. The right to privacy is about reproductive rights so your analogy that it is the equivalent of someone saying " don't tell me I can't shoot some random dude with my gun" is just wrong.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Nonsense. Even in criminal trials, where the consequences are most severe, the standard is "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" and not "absolutely, without any doubt, guilty"



    Wrong. Absolute truth has never been used as a legal standard, which is why you can't cite such a standard being used anywhere in the law

    What the hell are you talking about?

    Do you not understand what "reasonable doubt" means? it means doubt that an individual violated the law - the law that is truth.

    It's almost like you're trying to argue law is theory or really doesn't exist.

    Here is absolute truth. 720 ILCS 5 - that is the criminal code for Second Degree Murder in Illinois. That code exists, hence it is the truth.

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