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Thread: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    As minnies' response shows, with quotes from Roe v Wade, the decision to distinguish between a viable fetus and a non-viable one was not "arbitrary". SCOTUS put a lot of effort into researching the issue in order to come to their conclusion.

    And, contrary to your claim, their conclusion that a human does not become a person was not based on any "feeling". Again, it was based on a lot of research into how civilization has traditionally viewed the unborn. You would know this if you read and studied the RvW decision.

    The idea that human life should be protected from the "moment of conception" (ie a moment that doesn't actually exist) is the "arbitrary" distinction.
    "Tradition" often has very little to do with truth. You say that the SCOTUS "did a lot of research" before coming to their conclusion, then state it's based on tradition? OK. So your point is really meaningless when it comes to assigning any factual truth in the RvW decision.
    Protecting life at conception (a moment that can be set by observable fact give or take a few minutes), as I said previously, is simply erring on the side of caution based on what is at stake: a human life. I have stated previously that nobody living knows or can say the point at which that life becomes humanity based on any observable fact. Hence I argue that we as a society should err in favor of protecting the life that some would kill.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    "Tradition" often has very little to do with truth. You say that the SCOTUS "did a lot of research" before coming to their conclusion, then state it's based on tradition? OK. So your point is really meaningless when it comes to assigning any factual truth in the RvW decision.
    Protecting life at conception (a moment that can be set by observable fact give or take a few minutes), as I said previously, is simply erring on the side of caution based on what is at stake: a human life. I have stated previously that nobody living knows or can say the point at which that life becomes humanity based on any observable fact. Hence I argue that we as a society should err in favor of protecting the life that some would kill.
    You're wasting your time on this guy...

    This is a guy that believes and stated the Bill of Rights defines nothing. It's hard to debate with a guy that far out there.

    I agree with you tho. We aren't God therefore we shouldn't try to play God when it comes to the validity of a human life, and human life shouldn't be ceased just out of convenience - and that's what an abortion is - a convenience.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    "Tradition" often has very little to do with truth.
    "Truth", with a capital T, is a philosophical notion, not a legal one

    You say that the SCOTUS "did a lot of research" before coming to their conclusion, then state it's based on tradition? OK. So your point is really meaningless when it comes to assigning any factual truth in the RvW decision.
    Wrong. Their decision was based on factual knowledge. They used these facts to determine the intent of the Founders when they wrote the constitution.

    There is nothing dishonest with disagreeing with their findings on philosophical or moral grounds. However, it is just plain dishonest to claim that their ruling was "arbitrary". The word suggests they picked viability and birth at random and without reason when the truth is their decision was not random and based on a set of facts.

    Protecting life at conception (a moment that can be set by observable fact give or take a few minutes), as I said previously, is simply erring on the side of caution based on what is at stake: a human life. I have stated previously that nobody living knows or can say the point at which that life becomes humanity based on any observable fact. Hence I argue that we as a society should err in favor of protecting the life that some would kill.
    There is no "moment of conception". The fact that even you have to qualify that phrase by building in some "fudge time" demonstrates how arbitrary this notion of a moment of conception is.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    You're wasting your time on this guy...

    This is a guy that believes and stated the Bill of Rights defines nothing. It's hard to debate with a guy that far out there.
    It says a lot about 'viability' even decades out of the womb.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Also - I want to add this:

    These pro-baby killers routinely say: "don't tell me what I can do with my body." That is the equivalent of someone saying "don't tell me I cant shoot some random dude with my gun."

    Both situations have a perpetrator and a victim.

    So this is NOT a civil liberties issue - its a murder issue.

    I'm all for people being able to do what they want to their bodies but a fetus isn't a part of a womans body - a fetus is its own body and individual and an abortion is just as bad as murdering a grown adult. An individual does not have the right to kill another individual be it a fetus or a 115-year-old.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    "Truth", with a capital T, is a philosophical notion, not a legal one.....

    There is no "moment of conception". The fact that even you have to qualify that phrase by building in some "fudge time" demonstrates how arbitrary this notion of a moment of conception is.
    Are you a relativist then? I believe in absolute Truth, but don't respect so much SCOTUS or Sangha truth. I don't see much sense it addressing your entire post, as it is based on your relativist philosophy. But for the sake of others who may read this that are trying to grasp the ideas: My "fudge factor" in setting when conception happens is not fudged because it isn't in fact a point in time, it is because we my be unable to pinpoint in our observation exactly when that point happens. So it is a fudge based on our limits of observation, not whether the fact exists or not.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    You're wasting your time on this guy...

    This is a guy that believes and stated the Bill of Rights defines nothing. It's hard to debate with a guy that far out there.

    I agree with you tho. We aren't God therefore we shouldn't try to play God when it comes to the validity of a human life, and human life shouldn't be ceased just out of convenience - and that's what an abortion is - a convenience.

    Hey Nick. Yeah, I don't necessarily worry whether I can convince someone like this of the facts. But I relish the opportunity to publicly debate the matter so that others can see the arguments on each side. You are very right about abortion being about convenience. That's really all it's about. It is the sad side of our human nature; to justify our horrendous acts because it's for the greater good, whatever the heck that means.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    It says a lot about 'viability' even decades out of the womb.
    I don't like the word "viable" it's too subjective.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    Are you a relativist then? I believe in absolute Truth, but don't respect so much SCOTUS or Sangha truth. I don't see much sense it addressing your entire post, as it is based on your relativist philosophy. But for the sake of others who may read this that are trying to grasp the ideas: My "fudge factor" in setting when conception happens is not fudged because it isn't in fact a point in time, it is because we my be unable to pinpoint in our observation exactly when that point happens. So it is a fudge based on our limits of observation, not whether the fact exists or not.
    Whether I (or anyone else) believe in Absolute Truth is irrelevant. The law is not designed for, or intended to, divine the Absolute Truth.

    And if you can't identify exactly when that "moment" of conception occurs, I don't see how you can't state, as a fact, that the moment actually exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    Hey Nick. Yeah, I don't necessarily worry whether I can convince someone like this of the facts. But I relish the opportunity to publicly debate the matter so that others can see the arguments on each side. You are very right about abortion being about convenience. That's really all it's about. It is the sad side of our human nature; to justify our horrendous acts because it's for the greater good, whatever the heck that means.
    I suppose that's why we all come here. However it's mind-boggling how some people just cant get it.

    I understand the counterargument on this issue which is: "don't tell me what I can do with my body" but the issue is so much deeper and philosophical than that, but sadly the general consensus is "don't tell me what I can do with my body" - as if a fetus is a body part like an earlobe.

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