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Thread: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    i ever POSED the question in the first place......so why are you PRESSING me for the answer?

    it comes down to :
    is government doing its primary duty by-----> protecting life?
    some say the unborn is life, ...........and others say it is not, and they believe the woman is the one to decide what to do.
    does the woman have the RIGHT, To do with her body IE. PROPERTY ,as she wants to, or can government control her, IE .property, and ban abortion?
    Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That could be interpreted as anti-abortion.
    The unborn child is certainly a life, is alive.
    The unborn child is genetically a unique individual, so is not "a part of the mothers body." The child is a unique individual within the mothers body. That is a scientific fact.
    Currently the law allows for the woman to decide whether to kill this unique life within her body, up to a point.
    The pivotal point of decision would appear to be "when is that unique body actually a human being." This point is usually set in a very arbitrary fashion by most people.
    For me, I believe it is a unique human life at conception. It is at that point everything it is ever going to be, in process.
    But there are those who will say until it can walk around on it's own, it is not a viable human being and is therefore not human.
    It is a very God-like decision to be making in my mind, to decide when a human life is actually human. Especially when that human existence hinges on the outcome of our decisions.
    Would it not make sense to err on the side of caution? Or are we really smart enough to know the exact point of humanity?

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That could be interpreted as anti-abortion.
    The unborn child is certainly a life, is alive.
    The unborn child is genetically a unique individual, so is not "a part of the mothers body." The child is a unique individual within the mothers body. That is a scientific fact.
    Currently the law allows for the woman to decide whether to kill this unique life within her body, up to a point.
    The pivotal point of decision would appear to be "when is that unique body actually a human being." This point is usually set in a very arbitrary fashion by most people.
    For me, I believe it is a unique human life at conception. It is at that point everything it is ever going to be, in process.
    But there are those who will say until it can walk around on it's own, it is not a viable human being and is therefore not human.
    It is a very God-like decision to be making in my mind, to decide when a human life is actually human. Especially when that human existence hinges on the outcome of our decisions.
    Would it not make sense to err on the side of caution? Or are we really smart enough to know the exact point of humanity?
    The fetus is attached to woman until the cord is cut. A pre viable fetus is Not a separate entity as It cannot live apart from the
    woman until it reaches viability ( the point it survive outside the woman's womb with or without medical help).
    A pre viable fetus is a part of woman's body just as her arm is. If you detach a woman's arm it will die if it remains detached.
    If you detach a pre viable fetus it will not survive because a pre viable fetus like the woman's arm is a part of her body and depends on her blood and nutrients ...without those it dies.

    Women have to right to privacy and that gives her the right to decide if she ready , or if she feels she is healthy enough and wants to take risk of gestating and giving birth.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    The fetus is attached to woman until the cord is cut. A pre viable fetus is Not a separate entity as It cannot live apart from the
    woman until it reaches viability ( the point it survive outside the woman's womb with or without medical help).
    A pre viable fetus is a part of woman's body just as her arm is. If you detach a woman's arm it will die if it remains detached.
    If you detach a pre viable fetus it will not survive because a pre viable fetus like the woman's arm is a part of her body and depends on her blood and nutrients ...without those it dies.

    Women have to right to privacy and that gives her the right to decide if she ready , or if she feels she is healthy enough and wants to take risk of gestating and giving birth.

    Again, you have defined whether the unborn child is a separate entity arbitrarily as being at the point it can survive apart from the mother. There is nothing scientific or factual about this definition you espouse. It is simply that you have a "feeling" that it isn't a person until it can survive on it's own.

    The unborn child is nothing like a woman's arm or other body part. It has it's own blood and circulation, and is only fed from the mothers blood as nutrients transfer from the mothers blood to the child's blood through the placenta. It is indeed a unique life developing within the mothers body, and not like an arm that is just another part of her body.

    Women have a right to privacy, I agree. She does have the right to decide whether she will conceive a child or not.
    My stance is that once she has conceived, her decisioning is done regarding the life of the child inside her. At this point, the child should have rights, just like the mother. The child is not able to stand up for his/her own rights, so we must stand up as a society for the rights of the defenseless. Anything less is uncivilized and inhumane.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    Again, you have defined whether the unborn child is a separate entity arbitrarily as being at the point it can survive apart from the mother. There is nothing scientific or factual about this definition you espouse. It is simply that you have a "feeling" that it isn't a person until it can survive on it's own....
    Viability is not abritrary. It is when a fetus can live outside the womb.
    If a pregnant woman dies before the fetus is viable the fetus will also die even if doctors removed it and and gave it all the medial help they could.

    Once viaibity is reached a fetus "presumably has the capability of meaningful life outside the mother's womb..

    From Roe vs Wade:

    With respect to the State's important and legitimate interest in potential life, the "compelling" point is at viability.
    This is so because the fetus then presumably has the capability of meaningful life outside the mother's womb. State regulation protective of fetal life after viability thus has both logical and biological justifications. If the State is interested in protecting fetal life after viability, it may go so far as to proscribe abortion during that period, except when it is necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother.
    Roe v Wade - edited text

    No it not that I have a "feeling" that it isn't a person until it can survive on it's own.
    It is because a fetus is NOT a person under US law.


    A fetus in not a PERSON under U.S. law.
    Persons have rights under the Constitution, and it is clear that the authors of the Constitution and its amendments
    did not regard fetuses as persons.

    In order to say that fetuses are persons under U.S. law, the Constitution would have to be amended to say so.
    Therefore the intentional killing of a fetus does not have same legal status as the killing of a person.
    Roe v Wade - edited text
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Viability is not abritrary. It is when a fetus can live outside the womb.
    If a pregnant woman dies before the fetus is viable the fetus will also die even if doctors removed it and and gave it all the medial help they could.

    Once viaibity is reached a fetus "presumably has the capability of meaningful life outside the mother's womb..

    From Roe vs Wade:


    Roe v Wade - edited text

    No it not that I have a "feeling" that it isn't a person until it can survive on it's own.
    It is because a fetus is NOT a person under US law.



    Roe v Wade - edited text
    I understand what the law says. It's the same law that said at one time that blacks had to sit in the back of the bus. So while it is the law, it does not make it right. So much for the law.

    While viability isn't an arbitrary thing, assigning human rights at the point of viability is. That is what I meant, if not what I said. Your definition of human life appears to be arbitrarily based on viability outside the womb.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    I understand what the law says. It's the same law that said at one time that blacks had to sit in the back of the bus. So while it is the law, it does not make it right. So much for the law.

    While viability isn't an arbitrary thing, assigning human rights at the point of viability is. That is what I meant, if not what I said. Your definition of human life appears to be arbitrarily based on viability outside the womb.
    As I said I had 6 pregnancies but I am not a a mother to 6 children.
    I am a mother to 4 children.
    My 2 miscarriages were not children they were miscarried fetuses.

    We do not count fetuses as children. The US census does not count fetuses as children.
    Only the born are children/persons.

    Fertilized chicken eggs are not chickens until they hatch.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    i ever POSED the question in the first place......so why are you PRESSING me for the answer?
    For one thing, you haven't been shy about asking people questions about matters they didn't raise in the first place, so you really aren't in a good place to object when someone does the same to you.

    For another, unlike your questions, which seem to be more related to your interest in constitutional theory, my question is directly related to the matter at hand (ie abortion)

    With that said, I do appreciate your taking the time to try and answer my question

    it comes down to :

    is government doing its primary duty by-----> protecting life?

    some say the unborn is life, ...........and others say it is not, and they believe the woman is the one to decide what to do.

    does the woman have the RIGHT, To do with her body IE. PROPERTY ,as she wants to, or can government control her, IE .property, and ban abortion?
    I have seen you argue (and correct me if I've misunderstood you) that the fed govt only has those powers which the constitution has explicitely delegated to it. However, no matter how hard I look, I can't find anything in the constitution which says that the govt has been given the power to regulate abortion. Considering the possibility that I have overlooked it, I am asking you to please locate and identify the passage which grants our govt this power.

    While I do (again) appreciate your taking the time to respond, I did not ask you to outline your reasoning for why you think the govt has (or does not have) the power to regulate abortion. What I did ask was for you to quote from the Constitution where it authorizes the govt to regulate abortion.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    Again, you have defined whether the unborn child is a separate entity arbitrarily as being at the point it can survive apart from the mother. There is nothing scientific or factual about this definition you espouse. It is simply that you have a "feeling" that it isn't a person until it can survive on it's own.
    As minnies' response shows, with quotes from Roe v Wade, the decision to distinguish between a viable fetus and a non-viable one was not "arbitrary". SCOTUS put a lot of effort into researching the issue in order to come to their conclusion.

    And, contrary to your claim, their conclusion that a human does not become a person was not based on any "feeling". Again, it was based on a lot of research into how civilization has traditionally viewed the unborn. You would know this if you read and studied the RvW decision.

    The idea that human life should be protected from the "moment of conception" (ie a moment that doesn't actually exist) is the "arbitrary" distinction.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    As I said ........
    We do not count fetuses as children. The US census does not count fetuses as children.
    Only the born are children/persons.
    I heard what you said. And as I said, you are assigning human rights at the point of viability, and that is an arbitrary assignment.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    I heard what you said. And as I said, you are assigning human rights at the point of viability, and that is an arbitrary assignment.
    It is unreasonable to mention viability in your response because a fetus doesn't become a person at viability. It becomes a person at birth

    And it is dishonest to keep insisting that the courts use of viability as the point at which the State begins to have an interest in protecting potential human life is "arbitrary" when it was anything but arbitrary. It's one thing to disagree with a finding, and another to toss around adjectives because you like the way they sound.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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