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Thread: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

  1. #201
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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    Thanks Minnie. Do you have some biblical or even scientific basis for forming your opinion as to when a fetus is a person?
    Is the Bible pro-choice?



    In the debate over abortion, religious groups have tended to take the pro-life side. But in recent years, we have seen a number of religious groups coming forward with a pro-choice position. These include such groups as Catholics for Choice, the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, etc.
    What does the Bible really have to say about abortion?1

    As my source for the Christian pro-choice view, I took two articles available on the Internet:2 Is the Fetus a Person, by Dr Roy Bowen Ward of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, and Abortion is Not a Sin, by Poppy Dixon of Adult Christianity.


    The Biblical pro-choice argument -- in summary
    The general argument of these two articles (and of course many other similar ones) is essentially this:
    Nowhere does the Bible specifically prohibit or condemn abortion.

    Furthermore, the Bible connects life with breath. As a fetus does not breathe, therefore it is not truly alive, and so it is meaningless to talk of killing it.


    They go on to rebut several arguments that pro-lifers make to demonstrate that the Bible talks about unborn babies as people. They claim that in each case, the Biblical passage is better understood as referring to the unborn simply as potential people.

    Finally, Poppy goes on to argue that the pro-life position is blasphemous. God gives life, she claims, when he causes the newborn baby to begin breathing. To claim that life is given through the union of sperm and egg is to claim that human beings are giving life rather than God.

    Let's examine these arguments in more detail.
    <SNIP>
    The Biblical Pro-Choice Position


    Being Pro-choice is firmly grounded in the Bible.

    Who is pro-choice and religious?

    Denominations with official and long-standing pro-choice positions include the Presbyterian Church (USA), the Episcopal Church, the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ, the Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations, and Reform and Conservative Judaism. These organizations have a diversity of views about abortion and recognize it as a morally complex decision that must be made by the person most affected--the woman.

    Among religious groups, the pro-choice position is nuanced, recognizing that most people believe abortion--as well as bearing children-are matters for individual conscience, not government or religious mandate. Pro-choice denominations don't seek to impose their views on others or to make them law.[ They recognize that in our pluralistic society, politicians must not be allowed to impose laws about childbearing based on any particular belief about when life begins. The notion that life begins at the moment of conception is a belief held by some, but not all, religious groups.

    In fact, the Bible never mentions abortion and does not deal with the question of when life begins. Genesis 2:7 (God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living being") refers to the specific, unique event of the creation of Adam out of the earth. It says nothing about the process of conception, pregnancy, and birth.

    [SIZE=]
    The Book of Exodus clearly indicates that the fetus does not have the same legal status as a person (Chapter 21:22-23). That verse indicates that if a man pushes a pregnant woman and she then miscarries, he is required only to pay a fine. If the fetus were considered a full person, he would be punished more severely as though he had taken a life. [Editor's note: Read more detailed pro-choice and pro-life analyses of Exodus 21.][/SIZE]

    <SNIP>
    Christians and Jews agree that all life is sacred--the life of a woman as well as the potential life of a fetus.
    [/B]Many Protestant Christians emphasize the New Testament's teaching of the priesthood of all believers, meaning that everyone has direct access to God and therefore the ability to do God's will. [/B]
    The Biblical Basis for Being Pro-Choice: Bible, abortion, Christians, religion - Beliefnet.com
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Wrong

    None of the laws you cited change the finding that under the constitution, the unborn are not persons and therefore have no right to life
    Laws don't change rulings. SCOTUS has to revisit Roe in order for Roe to be changed. Don't you know how the US government works?

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    That's for SCOTUS to decide.
    They have already decided that the constitutions use of the word person does not include the unborn
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Laws don't change rulings. SCOTUS has to revisit Roe in order for Roe to be changed. Don't you know how the US government works?
    Right. Only SCOTUS can overturn RvW.

    Until it does, I am right; Under the law, the unborn are not persons
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    They have already decided that the constitutions use of the word person does not include the unborn
    40 years ago.

    You're just chasing your tail now, circular logic...and I see someone is bringing the bible into this thread....now I remember why I stopped posting in this forum.

    Have fun, non of you are addressing the causes for abortion so you're all wrong anyway...much like everyone in the Gun control forum focusing on the gun instead of what causes people to become murderers... later

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    They do in this context where the law at discussion limits the permitted abortion window. But you go on as usual and ignore anything that doesn't fit your script.
    It is a new state law that most likely will be struck down.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    40 years ago.
    Right

    And the constitution was written more than 200 years ago

    You're just chasing your tail now, circular logic...and I see someone is bringing the bible into this thread....now I remember why I stopped posting in this forum.

    Have fun, non of you are addressing the causes for abortion so you're all wrong anyway...much like everyone in the Gun control forum focusing on the gun instead of what causes people to become murderers... later
    Not sure what that means, but don't worry; I accept your surrender!
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    No, they don't

    State laws do not overturn the constitution.
    The Constitution is silent on the definition of person. According to Roe v Wade the states may decide what to allow after viability is reached as long as they maintain an exception for the health of the mother. The states even get to choose the doctors that will make that health of the mother determination. Viability the SCOTUS ballparked for the time of the decision but noted as medical science improved that figure may naturally be adjusted downward.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Roe v Wade



    The perp is not allowed to perform an abortion on a woman without that womans consent.
    You are aware that a SCOTUS decision can be overturned right? Roe dealt with the privacy of a woman, and encompassed the abortion question in murky, and questionable language that is being dealt with constantly. Sooner, or later the question of women killing the unborn out of convenience will be addressed. Right now, it may be legal to kill the unborn, but as we make laws that hold one standard for perpetrators of crime, and a different standard to those that kill the unborn because of irresponsibility, and moral vacuousness can only be seen clearly for what it is, gross hypocrisy.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Right. Only SCOTUS can overturn RvW.

    Until it does, I am right; Under the law, the unborn are not persons
    Roe v Wade does NOT say that. It simply allows for their legal killing during the window before viability.

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