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Thread: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    i am using my question as a precurser to the question of rights of a person.
    However, your question is a poor analogy. This is why I asked you if you thought that another human could be personal property. Answer that, and I am willing to entertain the road you are going down....
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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    constutional law states according to madison, states..... my property rights are as strong as my right to free speech.

    can (federal law) take away my natural right to free speech, and can federal law take away my natural right to my property.
    All laws can have restrictions. You have a right to free speech but you cannot yell " fire" in a crowed building if there is no fire.
    You have a right to your property but cities can pass zoning laws that forbid certain things such as no fences. Of course if there is a state law that says pools have to surrounded by a fence and you have a pool in your yard the state law takes precedence and you have to have a fence.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    sorry i should have added something to my statement, is not my personal property mind to do as i please ,---->as long as i do not infringe on the rights of other people.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    constutional law states according to madison, states..... my property rights are as strong as my right to free speech.

    can (federal law) take away my natural right to free speech, and can federal law take away my natural right to my property.
    I'm afraid this line of argument falls down as soon as you leave the borders of the United States. For me the discussion of abortion as a right or otherwise is not limited by borders or local constitutions. Women everywhere have babies, women everywhere have abortions and that's the discussion line I'm taking. I'll leave your question to Americans to answer as it has no relevance beyond your borders whereas the question of abortion and the human foetus is an international question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    And they're angry 8-year-olds because the system is ****ed..

    The simple fact there are a bunch of pissed 8-year-olds only proves my point that it is impossible to adopt a child.

    If it was easy to adopt a child they would have a family instead of being used as a pawn by the state.
    It should be hard to adopt a kid, you can't just have anyone walk up and adopt a child for whatever purpose. Of course the same scrutiny doesn't apply to people having their own kids but when wards of the state the state has an obligation to care for the children. Anyhow, just a quick peruse of your nations adopt a kid website shows that many kids of different ages (not just young) are awaiting adoption. Interesting that there are a high proportion of families of children which means children taken away or removed from parents in some way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Wrong answer.

    As soon as you answer that question, you loose, because the question is a trap. As soon as you answer it, you confirm that a need is in fact required, and then you try to demonstrate that need.

    The correct response to "why do you need that" is "do I have to need something to have it?". Abortion's just an elective, right? Do you have to demonstrate a 'need' for any other therapeutic procedure in order to have it? Breast augmentation? Liposuction? Scar removal? Face lift? As long as no one's being harmed, and pro-choice argues that no one is...shouldn't you be able to have pretty much whatever you have the money for? I had my wisdom teeth removed..I didn't need them removed, I just wanted them out because I thought it would make the rest of my teeth straighten out a bit...and they did. Purely cosmetic elective therapeutic procedure. You're saying I should have to have a need to remove my wisdom teeth.

    If it's just a clump of cells, and it's just a therapeutic procedure, then there's no moral quandary to be had. That you try to fulfill a 'need' means there is more than a clump of cells and an elective procedure in play. You betray yourself.
    You what? How on earth does that respond to my answers? All that's betrayed is your agenda.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Just as a point...aren't all medical procedures performed in a "back room"? I mean, have you ever seen any non-emergency procedure carried out in the lobby?
    Very funny point I am very sure. This seems to follow on the last post's line of reasoning.

    I'll respond when you can deal with my argument a little more coherently thank you.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Of course it is, but another human being is NOT property. That's why someone whom say kills a pregnant woman of 12 weeks can be prosecuted for not 1, but 2 murders....The mother, and the unborn child.
    Do you have a link to a US example of this law please? I know an MP tried to bring in a private member's bill in 2008 here following cases of the murder of pregnant girlfriends in Canada but it didn't become law and even then the MP wanted his bill to apply only to wanted fetuses, not the unwanted.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    If a woman rents her body out it is still her choice to make, she has rights over her own body so I don't see how your point addresses what I said?
    She will be arrested as a prostitute. She can use that explanation with the judge but she might still go to jail.
    The fallacy many pro-life people make is that all these children would have happy caring homes to go to. In the last set of US statistics, 400,000 children were in care. Not adopted and not living idyllic rosy happy lives.
    I certainly never said ALL these children but if they were allowed to be born at least they would have a chance to live in a happy caring home. If they find they are not happy then perhaps they can later self abort, but that decision should not be made for them. It's also highly unlikely they would make that decision as they probably appreciate the value and opportunity of life moreso than the abortionist or the potential mother who doesn't want to be inconvenienced. Perhaps these children should also should have some rights over their bodies.
    Please explain?
    Explain what? It seems I was quite clear.

    Yeah, add another 50 million humans to the equation, if a large proportion of those unwanted kids had gone on to be born - what percentage would be adopted / in foster care / in children's homes?
    I have no idea, but should we abort babies because you don't know which home they might go to? I'm sure there are people who have an understanding of where children are wanted and have homes available for these babies.

    Would pro-lifers be happy to foot the bill for all those extra millions?
    It seems clear they would. Those babies who were aborted are also those who would grow up to be taxpayers to support the social programs initiated by the same people who expect these social programs. Who is to pay for these programs if we are killing millions of the next generation?

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Perhaps you did't get an answer because you are asking the wrong question. It really iis not so much about doing with her body as she pleases as it is really about the right to privacy in regards to reproductivity.
    The right to privacy became a precedent when a case was brought before the Supreme Court in the mid 1960's that required That couples got counseling before they could use BC. The Supreme Court ruled those couples had a " right to privacy " and they could decide how many children they wanted, how many years they chose to space their children apart etc.
    If this person has the right to privacy then they should not expect someone else to pay for it. That is an invasion of another persons privacy, and their pocketbook. They can't expect to want their privacy and then go public with their demands when it suits them.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    If this person has the right to privacy then they should not expect someone else to pay for it. That is an invasion of another persons privacy, and their pocketbook. They can't expect to want their privacy and then go public with their demands when it suits them.
    No taxpayer monies are used for abortions as the Hyde amendment forbids using taxpayer monies for abortions.
    I don't understand what you are trying to say in your last sentence.

    Right to privacy means reproductive rights.
    The right to privacy means they get to plan their families, they get to plan the number of children they want, how far apart they want their children etc.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    what iam asking it really a doubled edge sword, and no one will answer.

    it has been stated you have a (right to privacy) according to a 1960 USSC decison...which means-----------> being secure in your person, your body.

    if you have a right to be secure in you person, which is your property, becuase ...you own you.

    do you have a right to YOUR property, what ever that property may be.
    I understand where you are going with this, however, one argument may well be that although you have a right to be secure in your person from unreasonable search, and or seizure, the moment you are talking about a separate life, as in the child growing inside you, that person has the same right to be secure.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    You what? How on earth does that respond to my answers? All that's betrayed is your agenda.



    Very funny point I am very sure. This seems to follow on the last post's line of reasoning.

    I'll respond when you can deal with my argument a little more coherently thank you.
    No need to cry just because I called you out on your hyperbole.

    Even when abortion was illegal, most abortions were performed by doctors in their office. What you meant to say was "back ally", not "back room", meaning the doctor would let the patient into the office through an ally exit so as not to be seen. It doesn't mean the abortion was performed in an ally.

    Back-ally abortion;

    5 Myths About “Back Alley” Abortions

    Myth #1. Illegal abortions were performed by unlicensed, unskilled hacks.


    Prior to legalization, 90 percent of illegal abortions were done by physicians. Most of the remainder were done by nurses, midwives or others with at least some medical training.

    The term “back alley” referred not to where abortions were performed, but to how women were instructed to enter the doctor’s office after hours, through the back alley, to avoid arousing neighbors’ suspicions.
    An illegal abortion may be called a "back-alley", "backstreet", or "back-yard" abortion.

    The wire coat hanger method was a popularly known illegal abortion procedure, although they were not the norm. In fact, Mary Calderone, former medical director of Planned Parenthood, said, in a 1960 printing of the American Journal of Public Health:

    "Abortion is no longer a dangerous procedure. This applies not just to therapeutic abortions as performed in hospitals but also to so-called illegal abortions as done by physician. In 1957 there were only 260 deaths in the whole country attributed to abortions of any kind, second, and even more important, the conference [on abortion sponsored by Planned Parenthood] estimated that 90 percent of all illegal abortions are presently being done by physicians. Whatever trouble arises usually arises from self-induced abortions, which comprise approximately 8 percent, or with the very small percentage that go to some kind of non-medical abortionist. Abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians."


    Unsafe abortion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by Jerry; 03-08-13 at 02:48 PM.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    No taxpayer monies are used for abortions as the Hyde amendment forbids using taxpayer monies for abortions.
    No way to prove that though. PP can say all they want that they don't use taxpayer funds in their abortion side, but the funds are not segregated, and therefore, since money is fungible, I'd be more than willing to bet that it is indeed the case that taxpayer money goes for abortion.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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