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Thread: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

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    Re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Define life.

    Does it begin at conception? Does it begin when the first cells begin to divide? Does it begin when it implants ? Does it begin when the heart starts to beat?Does it begin when a fetus becomes consious? Does it begin at Birth? Does it begin when the first breath of air is taken?

    Everyone has an opinion but no one really knows.

    Current Scientific Views of When Human Life Begins


    Current perspectives on when human life begins range from fertilization to gastrulation to birth and even after. Here is a brief examination of each of the major perspectives with arguments for and against each of the positions. Contemporary scientific literature proposes a variety of answers to the question of when human life begins.
    Here are Four Different Perspectives of when human life begins.


    Metabolic View:


    The metabolic view takes the stance that a single developmental moment marking the beginning of human life does not exist. Both the sperm and egg cells should individually be considered to be units of life in the same respect as any other single or multicellular organism. Thus, neither the union of two gametes nor any developmental point thereafter should be designated as the beginning of new life.

    Genetic View:


    The genetic view takes the position that the creation of a genetically unique individual is the moment at which life begins. This event is often described as taking place at fertilization, thus fertilization marks the beginning of human life.

    Embryological View:


    In contrast to the genetic view, the embryological view states that human life originates not at fertilization but rather at gastrulation. Human embryos are capable of splitting into identical twins as late as 12 days after fertilization resulting in the development of separate individuals with unique personalities and different souls, according to the religious view. Therefore, properties governing individuality are not set until after gastrulation.

    Neurological view:


    Although most cultures identify the qualities of humanity as different from other living organisms, there is also a universal view that all forms of life on earth are finite. Implicit in the later view is the reality that all life has both a beginning and an end, usually identified as some form of death. The debate surrounding the exact moment marking the beginning of a human life contrasts the certainty and consistency with which the instant of death is described. Contemporary American (and Japanese) society defines death as the loss of the pattern produced by a cerebral electroencephalogram (EEG). If life and death are based upon the same standard of measurement, then the beginning of human life should be recognized as the time when a fetus acquires a recognizable EEG pattern. This acquisition occurs approximately 24- 27 weeks after the conception of the fetus and is the basis for the neurological view of the beginning of human life.
    http://biology.franklincollege.edu/B...fe%20begin.pdf

    The last one actually makes the most sense to me.
    Since we define death as the point at which there is no more brain activity, then shouldn't we also define life as when brain activity begins?

    I also find it very interesting that a fetuses brain activity takes place right around the same time a fetus becomes viable.


    The limit of viability is 24 weeks and has not changed in the last 12 years.

    I think the Surpreme Court was very wise back in 1973 when they set viability as the time states could take a compelling interest in the "potential person" and NOT before.
    Last edited by minnie616; 03-26-13 at 11:10 AM. Reason: to add link
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    actually many scientist and biologist disagree and they say the life never stopped since the egg and sperm before the ZEF was also life, the feel its a continuance not a start, since there was no stop

    so no, we dont KNOW when it begins, thats just the OPINION you have

    its also meaningless to the abortion debate
    Except that when the two join there is a unique new set of DNA that didn't exist before that. That is a physiological FACT.
    To one who is utmost concerned with scientific FACT it is very IRONIC that you would dismiss this FACT as irrelevant to the abortion debate. I can see that you really aren't debating scientific fact at all, but rather your OPINION on what moral value this new unique life should be given.

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    Re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Does it begin at conception? Does it begin when the first cells begin to divide? Does it begin when it implants ? Does it begin when the heart starts to beat?Does it begin when a fetus becomes consious? Does it begin at Birth? Does it begin when the first breath of air is taken?

    Everyone has an opinion but no one really knows.


    Here are Four Different Perspectives of when human life begins.









    http://biology.franklincollege.edu/B...fe%20begin.pdf

    The last one actually makes the most sense to me.
    Since we define death as the point at which there is no more brain activity, then shouldn't we also define life as when brain activity begins?

    I also find it very interesting that a fetuses brain activity takes place right around the same time a fetus becomes viable.


    The limit of viability is 24 weeks and has not changed in the last 12 years.

    I think the Surpreme Court was very wise back in 1973 when they set viability as the time states could take a compelling interest in the "potential person" and NOT before.

    Ok then, Let me ask you, A woman is carrying her "potential child", is at about 20 weeks gestation, and is confronted by a criminal looking to rob her. During the course of the crime he shoots her in the stomach and kills not only her "potential child" but in the course she bleeds out and dies as well.

    They catch the criminal, how many murders should he be charged with?
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    Re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Does it begin at conception? Does it begin when the first cells begin to divide? Does it begin when it implants ? Does it begin when the heart starts to beat?Does it begin when a fetus becomes consious? Does it begin at Birth? Does it begin when the first breath of air is taken?

    Everyone has an opinion but no one really knows.


    Here are Four Different Perspectives of when human life begins.









    http://biology.franklincollege.edu/B...fe%20begin.pdf

    The last one actually makes the most sense to me.
    Since we define death as the point at which there is no more brain activity, then shouldn't we also define life as when brain activity begins?

    I also find it very interesting that a fetuses brain activity takes place right around the same time a fetus becomes viable.


    The limit of viability is 24 weeks and has not changed in the last 12 years.

    I think the Surpreme Court was very wise back in 1973 when they set viability as the time states could take a compelling interest in the "potential person" and NOT before.
    This is interesting.

    Would it be okay with you if I use it to start a new thread and poll question?

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    Re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Ok then, Let me ask you, A woman is carrying her "potential child", is at about 20 weeks gestation, and is confronted by a criminal looking to rob her. During the course of the crime he shoots her in the stomach and kills not only her "potential child" but in the course she bleeds out and dies as well.

    They catch the criminal, how many murders should he be charged with?
    If the state has a fetal homicide law they can charge the criminal with two , otherwise he/she would be charged with 1 murder and perhaps assult or whatever else under the law they could charge the criminal with.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    Re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Welliam Wittier View Post
    This is interesting.

    Would it be okay with you if I use it to start a new thread and poll question?
    Please feel free to start a thread a thread and poll but I ask that you also include a link to the four different scientific perspectives
    of when human life begins.

    Thanks ~
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    Re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Since we define death as the point at which there is no more brain activity, then shouldn't we also define life as when brain activity begins? .
    No.

    A tree, a goldfish, and Agent J are all alive despite any significant brain activity.

    Again the goalposts must always be moved, the definitions of well established words changed, in order to carry out a heinous crime to an innocent being.

    If you want to end a babies life then that is your choice, under the law of the land, to do so. But by having to change the known meaning of words in order to justify your position strongly suggests that your argument lacks real force, as well as humanity.

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    Re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    If the state has a fetal homicide law they can charge the criminal with two , otherwise he/she would be charged with 1 murder and perhaps assult or whatever else under the law they could charge the criminal with.
    Ok then, why is it that your own pro abortion theory advocates that the entirety of the country should fall under the premise that the SCOTUS decision dictates to the whole of the country that killing of convenience of the baby determines for everyone that it is ok, a supposed "right" even when determined by one parent of the child growing inside that parent, but when it comes to a criminal action it is left to the states? I mean, shouldn't that determination in all cases be left to the states?

    Also, it is not just "some states" as you describe....But rather a majority of states have these laws....

    Currently, at least 38 states have fetal homicide laws. The states include: Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin. At least 23 states have fetal homicide laws that apply to the earliest stages of pregnancy ("any state of gestation," "conception," "fertilization" or "post-fertilization"); these are indicated below with an asterisk (*).

    Fetal Homicide State Laws
    See, it is my contention that the Roe decision in the 70's went beyond the scope of the SCOTUS in making 'law' by fiat. If you want to contend that a mother has the "right" to abort her child in the scope of contraceptive, or convenience purposes, then the pro abortion advocates should amend the constitutions bill of rights. Until then all you have is an overstep of the court, and a mis application of what is and what is not a 'right' by a court that has overstepped its constitutional boundaries since Marbury.
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    Re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    [B]Since we define death as the point at which there is no more brain activity, then shouldn't we also define life as when brain activity begins?
    No, and here is why....

    “Forty years ago, being dead used to be very simple - it was the point at which your heart stopped beating,” said Professor Kellehear. “Now death itself has been complicated by the fact that we can keep alive people who are brain dead almost indefinitely. Brain death is the point at which doctors can switch off machines or begin harvesting organs, but, to relatives, being brain dead is not the same as being a corpse.

    Corpses are not warm, they are not pink, they do not move, they are not pregnant – but a person who is brain dead can be all of these things. To all appearances, there is little difference between a person who is brain dead and a person who is asleep. At the same time we ask people if it is OK to remove a beating heart or other living organ from their loved one.

    When Does Death Really Occur?
    That a pregnancy can continue after brain death shows scientifically that the child growing in the womb is a separate human growing in there....Your thoughts?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    Re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Please feel free to start a thread a thread and poll but I ask that you also include a link to the four different scientific perspectives
    of when human life begins.

    Thanks ~
    Those will be the poll questions.

    "Which one are you?"

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