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Thread: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    One question..
    Where did you read or hear that a fetus can feel pain at 9 weeks gestation?
    This has been known for decades. Although there is some debate from pro abortionist doctors, (probably to justify the procedure, or ease their own coscience)...

    Abortion is difficult and painful for the unborn child. Surgeon Robert P. N. Shearin states that: [1]

    As early as eight to ten weeks after conception, and definitely by thirteen-and-a-half weeks, the unborn experiences organic pain…. First, the unborn child's mouth, at eight weeks, then her hands at ten weeks, then her face, arms, and legs at eleven weeks become sensitive to touch. By thirteen-and-a-half weeks, she responds to pain at all levels of her nervous system in an integrated response which cannot be termed a mere reflex. She can now experience pain.
    President Ronald Reagan stated in 1984 that during an abortion:

    The fetus feels pain which is long and agonizing.
    After President Ronald Reagan said this then it set off a furious reaction by pro-choice advocates. They did not want to believe this, nor did they want the public to believe it. But twenty-six medical authorities, including two past presidents of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, stepped forward with a letter documenting that the unborn does in fact feel pain during an abortion.

    Their letter says in part: [2]

    Mr. President, in drawing attention to the capability of the human fetus to feel pain, you stand on firmly established ground…. That the unborn, the prematurely born, and the new-born of the human species is a highly complex, sentient, functioning, individual organism is established scientific fact…. Over the last eighteen years, real time ultrasonography, fetoscopy, study of the fetal EKG [electrocardiogram] and the fetal EEG [electroencephalogram] have demonstrated the remarkable responsiveness of the human fetus to pain, touch, and sound.
    Pioneer fetologist Albert Iiley, of the University of Auckland, says that by the fifty-sixth day after conception, the baby's spinal reflexes are sufficiently developed to feel pain.
    He adds: [3]

    When doctors first began invading the sanctuary of the womb, they did not know that the unborn baby would react to pain in the same fashion as a child would. But they soon learned he did.
    Dr. Liley's observation is graphically demonstrated in Dr. Bernard Nathanson's classic film, The Silent Scream, the first widely circulated ultrasound of an actual abortion. [4] It shows a child serenely resting in her mother's womb. Suddenly the child is alarmed because of the intruding abortion device. She moves as far away as she can, trying desperately to save her life. Just before her body is torn to pieces and sucked out through the vacuum tube, her tiny mouth opens in an unheard scream of terror. After the abortion the doctor who performed it was invited to view the ultrasound. He was so upset with what he saw that he left the room. Though he had performed over ten thousand abortions, he never performed another one. [5]

    Fact #13: The 8 week+ unborn baby feels real physical pain during an abortion.
    It is only those whom wish to cloud the facts that would deny that the fetus feels the pain of being torn apart and taken from the womb in the name of convenience of the woman consenting to kill the child....

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    I would like to share with you that the numbers of abortions per 1000 women are falling .
    In 1982 they stated falling and by 2008 ( the lastest stats I could find) a bit more than one third.


    United States abortion rates, 1960-2008

    Yes we still have quite a ways to go but as better methods of birth control are made available the numbers could reduce significantly.

    I think making birth control availble to anyone with no co pay is a step in the right direction.

    Delaying parenthood until one wants to become a parent would cut down the number of "welfare" moms as well as the number of abortions that are occuring at the present time.

    In the following privatly funded study the poor used free contraceptives and unwanted pregnancies dropped dramatically.
    I can agree that the use of contraceptives among those sexually active will prevent unwanted pregnancies, as well as cut down on disease. You are either ignoring, or purposely dismissing not only the abundance of lower cost contraceptives like the pill, or condoms to use the most expensive example, then demand that someone else other than the people committing the act take responsibility of that act...PP, and free clinics will give you brown bags full of condom's free for the asking. Don't tell me that you need an $800. per month prescription, then tell me that I have to pay for it so that you can have sex. I don't owe you that. Get your own contraception.
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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I can agree that the use of contraceptives among those sexually active will prevent unwanted pregnancies, as well as cut down on disease. You are either ignoring, or purposely dismissing not only the abundance of lower cost contraceptives like the pill, or condoms to use the most expensive example, then demand that someone else other than the people committing the act take responsibility of that act...PP, and free clinics will give you brown bags full of condom's free for the asking. Don't tell me that you need an $800. per month prescription, then tell me that I have to pay for it so that you can have sex. I don't owe you that. Get your own contraception.
    First of all I was trying to say that as methods of birth control improve the numbers of unwanted pregnancies and abortions will go down.

    I think you misunderstood what I said and what the study and article were saying. Condoms and birth control pills still have a failure rate about 1 to 5 percent even when used correctly. The BC pills usually cost between 10 to 50 dollars a month.


    Long term BC has a failure rate of about .03 percent so there would be many less unwanted pregnancies for women who use long term BC vs Women who count on condoms or pills as a method of BC.
    Long term BC costs about 800 dollars up front ( not $800 a month) but lasts about 5 to 10 years so the cost over the long termwould be about the same if not less.

    Also I did NOT say anything about free BC ( or the you/ taxes paying for it) I said if insurance companies offered long term BC along with the BC pill with no co pay I thought many more women would opt for the more reliable long term birth control and that the result would be fewer unwanted pregnancies and fewer abortions.

    Also I personally do do not need any BC anymore since my 4 children are now grown and I am long past my child bearing years.
    Last edited by minnie616; 03-19-13 at 12:43 PM. Reason: Typos
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    This has been known for decades. Although there is some debate from pro abortionist doctors, (probably to justify the procedure, or ease their own coscience)...



    It is only those whom wish to cloud the facts that would deny that the fetus feels the pain of being torn apart and taken from the womb in the name of convenience of the woman consenting to kill the child....

    LMAO that has to be the worse sight ever, i clicked on home because i like reading as much info as possible an learning and i stopped after so called facts 1.

    those facts are OPINIONS and instantly devalue anything else they could possible say. Oh by the way, i got a date with a Swedish model tonight, she is on the Swedish bikini team, i never met her but it said so on the internet.

    so please tell us about facts again

    Fact #1: Every abortion kills an innocent human being.

    this is 100% false and a blatant lie, credibility SHOT right from the start LMAO
    Last edited by AGENT J; 03-19-13 at 01:52 PM.
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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Those theories from the 1980's of early fetal pain have been proven wrong by many experts.

    Even states that fought for a fetal pain bill were only able fight for a 20 week gestation mark :
    <SNIP>
    If a fetal pain bill passes during the 83rd legislative session, which begins in January, Texas would become the 10th state to ban abortions after 20 weeks. Although some scientists have reported that fetuses have sufficient nerve development to feel pain at 20 weeks of development, a study by the Journal of the American Medical Association published in 2005 found “evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.”
    https://www.texastribune.org/2013/03...tal-pain-bill/

    This UK study is in disagreeement that fetal pain starts before 24 weeks gestation;


    The UK-based Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists has published a government commissioned scientific review and concluded that a fetus is not conscious at 24 weeks of age.
    It is also not able to feel pain.
    <SNIP>

    About the manner in which the report was put together, the RCOG website is completely transparent, saying that
    A wide range of stakeholders including scientists, doctors, midwives and lay representatives were involved in producing these reports.

    Relevant international scientific studies published since the 1990s were considered by the respective working parties as was evidence submitted to the Science and Technology Committee.

    An online public consultation followed and the public were invited to submit their views.

    ] Both documents went through rigorous peer-review which included academics, ethicists and lawyers.

    Read more: New study: Fetus not yet conscious at 24 weeks

    From: The Consciousness Meter: Sure You Want That?:


    The tricky part comes when these definitions of life get applied at the beginning of life. The landmark 1973 case Roe v. Wade replaced an old marker of life — the “quickening” or first movements of the fetus — with one based on fetal viability, which typically occurs at about the 23d week.

    This was a tactical move meant to provide a firmer marker for legal purposes. Law seeks clarity. Which is where a consciousness meter could be quite tempting to the courts — and discouraging to anti-abortion conservatives:

    [B]As leading neuroscientist Michael Gazzaniga, a member of President Bush’s Council on Bioethics, describes in his book The Ethical Brain, current neurology suggests that a fetus doesn’t possess enough neural structure to harbor consciousness
    until about 26 weeks, when it first seems to react to pain.
    ]

    Before that, the fetal neural structure is about as sophisticated as that of a sea slug and its EEG as flat and unorganized as that of someone brain-dead.

    The consciometer may not put the abortion issue to rest—given the deeply held religious and moral views on all sides, it’s hard to imagine that anything could.

    But by adding a definitive neurophysiological marker to the historical and secular precedents allowing abortion in the first two-thirds of pregnancy, it may greatly buttress the status quo or even slightly push back the 23-week boundary.
    The Consciousness Meter: Sure You Want That? | Wired Science | Wired.com
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    This has been known for decades. Although there is some debate from pro abortionist doctors, (probably to justify the procedure, or ease their own coscience)...



    It is only those whom wish to cloud the facts that would deny that the fetus feels the pain of being torn apart and taken from the womb in the name of convenience of the woman consenting to kill the child....

    No. They can't.

    3. "This is what an abortion looks like."

    Almost always false. Many abortion protest photographs are artist's renderings or the result of image manipulation, and the bulk of the rest are of very late-term fetuses aborted for emergency medical reasons. The most well-known graphic abortion poster is of a 30-week-old fetus, aborted six full weeks into the third trimester. The vast majority of abortions are performed during the first trimester, and Roe v. Wade only protects first and second trimester abortions.
    4. "Even first-trimester fetuses can feel pain."

    False. Fetal nerve cells can react to trauma, but pain reception requires a neocortex--which is not formed until early in the third trimester.

    Top 10 Anti-Abortion Myths - Top 10 Myths About Abortion
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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective-J View Post
    This has been known for decades. Although there is some debate from pro abortionist doctors, (probably to justify the procedure, or ease their own coscience)...



    It is only those whom wish to cloud the facts that would deny that the fetus feels the pain of being torn apart and taken from the womb in the name of convenience of the woman consenting to kill the child....


    LMAO that has to be the worse sight ever, i clicked on home because i like reading as much info as possible an learning and i stopped after so called facts 1 and 2.

    those facts are OPINIONS and instantly devalue anything else they could possible say. Oh by the way, i got a date with a Swedish model tonight, she is on the Swedish bikini team, i never met her but it said so on the internet.
    Ahhh... The Swedish model you met on the internet..kinda like that commerical where the lady has a date with the French model she met on the internet.
    That commericial makes me smile everytime I see it.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Ahhh... The Swedish model you met on the internet..kinda like that commerical where the lady has a date with the French model she met on the internet.
    That commericial makes me smile everytime I see it.
    exactly!
    people are so funny their biased can make them believe anything

    fyi you quoted my post weird seems me and his words are running together but what ever we get the point LOL

    and yes thats a great commercial, i love the look she gives her friend when they go to walk away after he shrugs and says bonjour LOL gets me every time
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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    If you could find a link to the study/ studies that say the brain and nervous system are developed enough by 19 21 weeks gestation for a fetus to feel pain I would like to read. I try to keep up with the latest studies.
    I don't remember where I originally got those numbers, but here is a link I found that mentions a couple studies I remember reading about: Do Fetuses Feel Pain? : Discovery News

    One of the first clues that fetuses might feel pain came in the early 1990s, when researchers in England stuck needles into second-trimester fetuses and observed the release of pain-related hormones and nerve-signaling molecules. Before that, doctors thought the fetal nervous system was too undeveloped to feel pain. Even newborns endured surgeries without anesthesia.
    he said, studies have shown that the fetal brain and body are coordinated enough to experience pain by between about 18 and 20 weeks. When a fetus of that age gets a blood transfusion, for example, changes in heart rate and blood pressure accompany shifts in circulation and spikes in stress hormones. A morphine-like drug calms all of those responses down.
    I'm no expert on this matter, and there very well could be new studies that contradict the information here, but this is what I was referring to.
    Last edited by Pilot; 03-19-13 at 02:06 PM. Reason: Typo

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    I don't remember where I originally got those numbers, but here is a link I found that mentions a couple studies I remember reading about: Do Fetuses Feel Pain? : Discovery News

    I'm no expert on this matter, and there very well could be new studies that contradict the information here, but this is what I was referring to.

    Thanks .
    i will read the article and look into it a little more.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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