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Thread: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    If this is aimed at starting a discussion on whether the right exists in the American constitution - I'm going to point out that abortion is not just an American issue and the treatment or view of what a person can do with their own body in western culture is fairly common. I bow out if you want to argue about the US constitution and abortion, I'm not American and I'm not interested.
    Well, the OP was about an American State, and the law they passed on a Breaking News forum that deals mostly with American issues, or issues that effect America. So, yes the constitutional question has bearing.

    Society places some limits on rights - after 24 weeks and viability has been established, a woman's rights are limited by the child's growing rights but these are minimal before 24 weeks.
    Why? Is there some magic that happens between the 23rd, and the 25th week? Is it not still growing inside the mother?

    What we are talking about is the state of medical, and technological advance at this moment in time. That is a moving target. For the pro abortion to say that it is more a baby at 25 weeks than it was at 23 weeks is ridiculous.

    Regarding your comment about men's rights - your rights to a woman's body or to do what you will with a woman's body should never be enforcible in law.
    Is there some advance in pregnancy that allows a woman to become pregnant without the male sperm now? Did I miss it? Until that happens the man should have a say.
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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Well, the OP was about an American State, and the law they passed on a Breaking News forum that deals mostly with American issues, or issues that effect America. So, yes the constitutional question has bearing.
    Yes but the constitutional argument is of no interest outside the USA where abortion still happens. I am not interested in the constitution - just a mother's rights to her own body and choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    -- Why? Is there some magic that happens between the 23rd, and the 25th week? Is it not still growing inside the mother?
    Well, you quoted me from part of a conversation I am having with another poster who is also not American. If you trawl back using the links, I explain the "magic" that happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What we are talking about is the state of medical, and technological advance at this moment in time. That is a moving target. For the pro abortion to say that it is more a baby at 25 weeks than it was at 23 weeks is ridiculous.
    OK, now we're dealing with abortion and not the US constitution, thank you. Both Grant and I have addressed this element of technology and law. Currently and for the forseeable future, viability is limited to 24 weeks - not being more a "baby" or "human" or person. It is simple biological fact that a baby / child / person / fetus (I am not interested in the emotional argument behind what "it" is called) is not viable before 24 weeks. Please read back because I'm talking about medical science, not "ridiculous"
    Before 24 weeks, a baby / child / person / fetus is highly unlikely to survive outside the uterus; the ratio being approx 9 in 100 births at this stage. That ratio changes after this stage in development.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    -- Is there some advance in pregnancy that allows a woman to become pregnant without the male sperm now? Did I miss it? Until that happens the man should have a say.
    I have no idea what you are trying to argue here. Did you read my post properly?

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    What happens in hospitals is still affected and defined by courts and politicians who represent the views of the public. This is not an argument about good or bad politicians but the role politicians should play - advocates of the public.
    Agreed, but "viability" is a medical term and once the politicians begin using it, it can lead to other areas as well.
    I'm not sure what you're arguing, I thought I was agreeing with you about information being available for pregnant mothers?
    We were, until you said "I have no problem with high quality information being presented to a pregnant mother about alternatives she may have if she allowed the baby to carry to term however anti-abortionists already use emotive and highly charged terms to describe abortion and mothers who have abortions. I don't trust that alternatives won't be presented in ways that pressurise women to keep their unwanted babies or simply end up with many unwanted children living in childcare where the next problem arises which is who will pay for them".

    That seems to mean that you are all for women having information but that it should be selective information.

    Conception is not always planned or convenient, sex is not always done at the right time with all the right information, equipment, state of mind. What I find interesting is that countries with the widest availability of abortion and sexual reproductivity information tend to have lower abortion rates than those with greater limits on abortion and less planned information about sexual reproduction. The evidence is against the anti-abortion crowd. Abortion rates in Holland, Sweden, Finland and other such countries is much lower than many other western countries such as the UK and US.
    There are many reasons for this but it could sidetrack the debate into other areas.

    That's quite an extensive report. Can you summarize briefly what the negatives are?

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Agreed, but "viability" is a medical term and once the politicians begin using it, it can lead to other areas as well.
    Good point, I accept that politicians can begin to sway the term but generally local medical knowledge and scientific information will show up many politicians who try to bring a personal agenda. I'm not familiar with many examples of politicians using the term viability in a different way from the way doctors and medical professionals use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    -- We were, until you said "I have no problem with high quality information being presented to a pregnant mother about alternatives she may have if she allowed the baby to carry to term however anti-abortionists already use emotive and highly charged terms to describe abortion and mothers who have abortions. I don't trust that alternatives won't be presented in ways that pressurise women to keep their unwanted babies or simply end up with many unwanted children living in childcare where the next problem arises which is who will pay for them".

    That seems to mean that you are all for women having information but that it should be selective information.
    Maybe I put that badly, I'm all for lots of information. The extra about pressure is my suspicion about emotional blackmail once morality of having / not having an abortion becomes part of the information. If the information is factual and accurate, that any adoption facilities / support or childcare available after a birth really does exist then I would be more than happy for mothers to have such information.
    I'd trust medical professionals to give impartial advice about abortion / carrying to term but I'm less willing to trust social care workers with information about adoption / adoption facilities and or statistics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    -- There are many reasons for this but it could sidetrack the debate into other areas.
    True, I didn't want to go there either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That's quite an extensive report. Can you summarize briefly what the negatives are?
    Very simply, there are many children already waiting for adoptive or foster parents now - even with abortion being available. The point is how many more children there will be living in such facilities waiting for the dreamed of parents that many argue are queuing to adopt. Not even mentioning the question of who will pay for the feeding and upkeep of these children.

    Apparently many of the children are African American, a disproportionate number. How many African American families are there ready to adopt into good homes? How many white / hispanic etc parents are there who will adopt a black child too?

    The practicalities are a huge consideration.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    Yes but the constitutional argument is of no interest outside the USA where abortion still happens. I am not interested in the constitution - just a mother's rights to her own body and choices.
    This is a thread about a law passed in the state of Arkansas. Your interests are irrelevant.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    No one ever said differently, but please tell me how that extends to killing a defenseless child in the womb....Their choice should begin before they contemplate committing the act that results in the pregnancy to start with. Now, you say "She/They" as if you think that the father of that unborn child has a say one way or the other. This is how disingenuous the pro abortion side of the argument really is.
    My husband always has a say in things concerning our children. How many we wanted,how many we could afford, how far apart we should plan them , if a woman has good relationship with her husband or lover she would most likely discuss whether or not she have an abortion with the father of the unborn.

    If however, he abuses her or she is scared of of him, if he left her, if she was raped then she might decide not to include the father of the unborn in her decision.

    While you consider a pre viable fetus to be a child many pro choices do not believe it becomes a child/baby/person until it is born.
    Last edited by minnie616; 03-18-13 at 09:07 PM. Reason: Typo
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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    My husband always has a say in things concerning our children. How many we wanted,how many we could afford, how far apart we should plan them , if a woman has good relationship with her husband or lover she would most likely discuss whether or not she have an abortion with the father of the unborn.

    If however, he abuses her or she is scared of of him, if he left her, if she was raped then she might decide not to include the father of the unborn in her decision.

    While you consider a pre viable fetus to be a child many pro choices do not believe it becomes a child/baby/person until it is born.
    I understand what you are saying, and if everyone was like you, and thought like you did, then it may not be as bad, but the sad fact is that they don't. An overwhelming number of abortions in this country are used as contraceptive measures. And the fact that most women getting those abortions don't feel it is a child, is of no concern to me, it is what it is...It's not a toaster, or a rubber ducky...It is a child. That feels pain at 9 weeks, and has a heartbeat earlier than that. Use what ever term you want to help you sleep better, but it is only one thing, a child.
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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    I understand what you are saying, and if everyone was like you, and thought like you did, then it may not be as bad, but the sad fact is that they don't. An overwhelming number of abortions in this country are used as contraceptive measures. And the fact that most women getting those abortions don't feel it is a child, is of no concern to me, it is what it is...It's not a toaster, or a rubber ducky...It is a child. That feels pain at 9 weeks, and has a heartbeat earlier than that. Use what ever term you want to help you sleep better, but it is only one thing, a child.
    One question..
    Where did you read or hear that a fetus can feel pain at 9 weeks gestation?

    I have read a lot of studies and from everything I read experts agreed that fetus cannot feel pain before 24 weeks gestation. Most feel it would fall somewhere between 26 weeks gestation and 39 weeks gestation.

    I would like to share with you that the numbers of abortions per 1000 women are falling .
    In 1982 they stated falling and by 2008 ( the lastest stats I could find) a bit more than one third.
    1981 6.87
    1982 6.79

    [By]2008 they fell to 3.99
    United States abortion rates, 1960-2008

    Yes we still have quite a ways to go but as better methods of birth control are made available the numbers could reduce significantly.

    I think making birth control availble to anyone with no co pay is a step in the right direction.

    Delaying parenthood until one wants to become a parent would cut down the number of "welfare" moms as well as the number of abortions that are occuring at the present time.

    In the following privatly funded study the poor used free contraceptives and unwanted pregnancies dropped dramatically.



    SNIP>

    The project tracked more than 9,000 women in St. Louis, many of them poor or uninsured.
    They were given their choice of a range of contraceptive methods at no cost — from birth control pills to goof-proof options like the IUD or a matchstick-sized implant.

    When price wasn't an issue, women flocked to the most effective contraceptives — the implanted options, which typically cost hundreds of dollars up-front to insert.
    These women experienced far fewer unintended pregnancies as a result,

    reported Dr. Jeffrey Peipert of Washington University in St. Louis in a study published Thursday.


    The effect on teen pregnancy was striking:

    There were 6.3 births per 1,000 teenagers in the study. Compare that to a national rate of 34 births per 1,000 teens in 2010.


    There also were substantially lower rates of abortion, when compared with women in the metro area and nationally:[/B]
    4.4 to 7.5 abortions per 1,000 women in the study, compared with 13.4 to 17 abortions per 1,000 women overall in the St. Louis region,[/B]
    Peipert calculated. That's lower than the national rate, too, which is almost 20 abortions per 1,000 women.

    .
    http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Dail...h-control.aspx

    From the following article:
    But when cost and other barriers are lifted, the opinion notes that the Contraceptive CHOICE Project found that
    ]U]more than two-thirds of women age 14-20 chose LARC methods.[/U]

    The project, at the Washington University in St. Louis School of Medicine, recruited 9,256 women and studies the effect of free access to birth control methods.

    Perhaps the biggest consideration for women -- and especially adolescent girls -- is a contraceptive's upfront cost.

    At an average of about $700-$800 before insurance, the $10-$50 cost of a monthly pack of birth control pills can seem favorable.

    Without a reduced fee, the lowest price Planned Parenthood of Western Pennsylvania can offer Mirena is $800, said Rebecca Cavanaugh, vice president for public affairs for the local chapter.
    Experts recommend women pick long-term birth control method - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette


    Peventing pregnancy is happening in fact pregnancy among teens has gone down.
    From this article:
    There’s good news from researchers at the Guttmacher Institute. “Only” 7% of teens and “only” about 16% of sexually experienced teens got pregnant in 2008, the most recent year for which data is available.

    It’s good news because the U.S. teen pregnancy rate continues to drop. Way back in 1990, the teen pregnancy rate peaked at 116.9 pregnancies per 1,000 teen females. That means 11.7% of all teens got pregnant that year.

    Among sexually experienced teens — those who ever had intercourse — 22.3% got pregnant in 1990.

    The teen birth rate and the teen abortion rate also went down:

    4% of teens gave birth in 2008, down from the 1991 peak of 6.2%.
    1.8% of teens had an abortion in 2008 — the lowest abortion rate since abortion was legalized and down from the 1988 peak of 4.35% in 1988.
    From 1986 to 2008, the proportion of teen pregnancies ending in abortion dropped by a third, from 46% to 31%.

    Why is the teen pregnancy rate dropping? According to a 2007 study, it’s mainly due to better use of birth control. Teens are using more effective forms of contraception.
    Drop in Teen Pregnancy Due to Birth Control WebMD Newsroom
    Last edited by minnie616; 03-18-13 at 10:39 PM.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    One question..
    Where did you read or hear that a fetus can feel pain at 9 weeks gestation?

    I have read a lot of studies and from everything I read experts agreed that fetus cannot feel pain before 24 weeks gestation. Most feel it would fall somewhere between 26 weeks gestation and 39 weeks gestation.
    I've done some research and seen mostly 19-21 weeks. That makes more sense to me. Wouldn't it have to be at least as low as the youngest premature baby known to survive? Could a sense of pain develop after birth?

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    I've done some research and seen mostly 19-21 weeks. That makes more sense to me. Wouldn't it have to be at least as low as the youngest premature baby known to survive? Could a sense of pain develop after birth?
    If you could find a link to the study/ studies that say the brain and nervous system are developed enough by 19 21 weeks gestation for a fetus to feel pain I would like to read. I try to keep up with the latest studies.

    The youngest premie to ever survive was 21 weeks and 6 days gestation.

    Experts say no fetus under 21 weeks will ever survive even with more advanced premie medical equipment...
    Their lungs are just not developed enough.

    The limit of viability ( when 50 percent will survive more a couple days) is currently 24 weeks gestation but major disabilities are still high. The 24 week limit of viability has remained unchanged for the last 12 years .


    Most hospitals will not try to save any premie under 23 weeks gestation.

    They give comfort care.. They Keep them warm and fed, until their natural death occurs.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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