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Thread: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    It is up to the individual to determine his own moral standards. We have agreed in the country to freedom of conscience, and the only limitation is when that freedom impacts another person.
    If that is the case do you want the individual to be responsible for those standards, without having any impact on others?
    Freedom of conscience again. Morality alone is not sufficient reason for law.
    Then lets allow whatever behavior an individual may want but let them alone be responsible for the consequences of that behavior. Agreed?
    You're confusing the definition of "viable" with self-sufficiency. "Viable" means able to survive outside the womb.
    I understand the meaning of both terms. What I'm saying is that the difference is not important.

    Aren't you wanting to control the language by DEMANDING the zef be called a "baby", "a person", or "a human"?
    I'm not "demanding" anything. I just won't have the the leftists control the language.
    Women are preventing "a human life." Women can give life, or they can refuse to give that gift.
    Right. It seems that many of them are not ready for that responsibility. Their appearance is more important, or their social life.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    If that is the case do you want the individual to be responsible for those standards, without having any impact on others?
    The individual IS responsible for his own moral standards, which are only limited when they impact others in a detrimental way.


    Then lets allow whatever behavior an individual may want but let them alone be responsible for the consequences of that behavior. Agreed?
    The behavior of an individual must be limited when the consequences of that behavior affects another person in a detrimental way. It's better when possible to prevent an action than to force "consequences", meaning punishment, upon a person.


    I understand the meaning of both terms. What I'm saying is that the difference is not important.
    But it is. Self-sufficiency is never total. We all depend upon others for some things.

    I'm not "demanding" anything. I just won't have the the leftists control the language.
    If you "won't have" the leftists controlling the language, you are pretty much DEMANDING that rightists control it. Communication will totally break down if we have both leftist and rightist languages.


    Right. It seems that many of them are not ready for that responsibility. Their appearance is more important, or their social life.
    Women who are not ready for that responsibility should not be forced to assume it, it guarantees they will do a shabby job of it. You are revealing your distrust of women when you suggest that women will have abortions for trivial unimportant reasons.
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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by OKgrannie View Post
    The individual IS responsible for his own moral standards, which are only limited when they impact others in a detrimental way.
    Yes, you said that. If you behave in an immoral fashion it may impact others financially, right?
    The behavior of an individual must be limited when the consequences of that behavior affects another person in a detrimental way. It's better when possible to prevent an action than to force "consequences", meaning punishment, upon a person.
    That's fine. Just so long as everyone is responsible for their own deliberate actions and their is no financial impact on others, unless voluntary, then we are in agreement.

    But it is. Self-sufficiency is never total. We all depend upon others for some things.
    Agreed. And, again, as long as it is voluntary, I think it works well.

    If you "won't have" the leftists controlling the language, you are pretty much DEMANDING that rightists control it. Communication will totally break down if we have both leftist and rightist languages.
    This seems 'pretty much' like a big deal to you so go with whatever meaning you want. I've already explained my position but if you prefer i take another in this area it doesn't bother me all that much.
    Women who are not ready for that responsibility should not be forced to assume it, it guarantees they will do a shabby job of it.
    But aren't they free to make those decisions? If they are then they should make responsible ones. But please don't ask others to pay for their decisions. You can't have it both ways.

    You are revealing your distrust of women when you suggest that women will have abortions for trivial unimportant reasons.
    Actually I was considering your previous posts.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    No, i'm ignoring the arbitrary goal posts that were established strictly as a compromise timeline. What make a baby less 'viable' one day or week to the next? They still need constant care and would not survive long without outside help.
    I thought we'd been over this already? At 23 weeks and under, a child born prematurely has a very low chance of survival even with medical care. Those 9 in 100 that do are often afflicted with problems because they have not developed sufficiently to become "viable." Also as I stated, if you wish to extend the concept of viability then it goes right up to death at old age because we all need some form of constant care and outside help.

    Medically, viability is clearly defined and this is why there is a 24 week limit on abortion in many countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    -- These goalposts can be moved at the whim of any group with the legal power to move them so may as well be in sand. My interest is more in the immorality of abortion, the seriousness of taking another human life, and looking at the euphemisms we use to disguise what we are really doing to these babies --
    I admire your stand and attempt to debate this on moral ground however I personally find that morality and definitions of morality can be even more based on foundations of shifting sand which is why the biological argument (rightly) takes precedence.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    ?....


    Right. It seems that many of them are not ready for that responsibility. Their appearance is more important, or their social life.


    If a pregnancy is unplanned and unwanted then most would not be ready for the responsibility of motherhood ....
    That is a given.

    Do you really think women are so shallow that they think appearence or social life is more important than motherhood?

    As a women I cannot fathom that.

    I believe almost all women know that being a good mother is very important responsibly that one should be prepared for.
    They understand it not only takes hard work,but a lot of time and a stable relationship to be a responsible parent.

    There are a lot of factors that come into play before a person is ready to become a good parent.

    Just as there are a lot of factors that come into play before a young adult is ready to decide they have met the right person that would like to spend the rest of their life with.

    We encourage our teens and young Adults to take their time and choose their lifelong parter very carefully.

    We should not force girls or young women into continuing pregnancies and becoming moms when they totally unprepared, do not have a loving parter , and not ready to be moms. We are setting these teens and young adults up for failures as mothers.
    Last edited by minnie616; 03-17-13 at 07:26 PM.
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    I thought we'd been over this already? At 23 weeks and under, a child born prematurely has a very low chance of survival even with medical care. Those 9 in 100 that do are often afflicted with problems because they have not developed sufficiently to become "viable." Also as I stated, if you wish to extend the concept of viability then it goes right up to death at old age because we all need some form of constant care and outside help.
    Exactly~! Therefore using the term "viability" in order to destroy a life is a false and immoral position to take.
    Medically, viability is clearly defined and this is why there is a 24 week limit on abortion in many countries.
    And I'm saying that that is a 'goalpost' that should not even be there.

    I admire your stand and attempt to debate this on moral ground however I personally find that morality and definitions of morality can be even more based on foundations of shifting sand which is why the biological argument (rightly) takes precedence.
    Not if we genuinely examine the issues.

    One argument given that God exists is the fact that human beings have a conscience (CS Lewis). Whatever your belief in a deity might be we still have that conscience and we know, or should know, the difference between right and wrong.

    We agree, for the most part I assume, that smoking should be avoided, and we have passed laws restricting the activity. The 'rights' argument for smoking didn't stand up for long. We might also agree that sticking a needle in your veins in order to get a high is equally stupid and self destructive.

    My feeling is that abortion should be looked at in the same way. Legal, yes, but also one that might be a seriously flawed decision when there are certainly alternatives available. Some women who have had abortions, when said consciences kick in, later regret that they didn't explore those alternatives.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by minnie616 View Post
    Do you really think women are so shallow that they think appearence or social life is more important than motherhood?As a women I cannot fathom that.
    OKgrannie said this and you gave it a "like" so i can assume there are at least two women who feel that their appearance is a factor.

    Originally Posted by OKgrannie
    It's not just hard, it's impossible. A woman's body is damaged permanently from pregnancy/childbirth. Every woman may not get ALL of this list of permanent effects, but every woman will get some.
    THE LIZ LIBRARY TABLE OF CONTENTS

    Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

    stretch marks (worse in younger women)
    loose skin
    permanent weight gain or redistribution
    abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
    pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life)
    changes to breasts
    varicose veins
    scarring from episiotomy or c-section
    other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
    increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
    loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)
    higher lifetime risk of developing Altzheimer's
    newer research indicates microchimeric cells, other bi-directional exchanges of DNA, chromosomes, and other bodily material between fetus and mother (including with "unrelated" gestational surrogates)

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    OKgrannie said this and you gave it a "like" so i can assume there are at least two women who feel that their appearance is a factor.
    So pelvic floor disorder,
    Urinary and rectal incontinence,
    Loss of calcium,
    Alzheimer's,

    Are all about appearance...I don't think so.

    Add to that kidneys permanently damaged which is also on the Liz library list and an ailment I have because I had extreme morning sickness during my first pregnancy and I could not keep enough fluids down. Did you hear about Kate Middleton being hospitalized because she had the same type of morning sickness I had? Well, I had it almost 40 years ago, and even today with lots of advances in medicine that extreme morning sickness still causes extreme weight loss ,eyesight problems, kidney problems, and in some cases renal failure.

    So since OKgrannie posted a link and I liked it ...it makes 2 women are who vein and are worried about our appearances .If you really think that then you really have a low value of women and you have no idea how badly my body was affected by my pregnancies.

    I am one of about 10 percent of women who actually had a life threatening pregnancy, so I know that at any given time a pregnancy can become life threatening. For that reason among others I would never support a law or a country that would force a woman to continue her pregnancy. On the other side of the coin I would never support a law or a country that would force a women to have an abortion.

    Women should have a choice.
    Last edited by minnie616; 03-17-13 at 09:31 PM. Reason: Typo
    When it comes to matters of reproduce health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Are all about appearance...I don't think so.
    Of course you are being dishonest here, aren't you?

    I said "OKgrannie said this and you gave it a "like" so i can assume there are at least two women who feel that their appearance is a factor".

    "A factor" is quite different then your claim that I said it was "All about appearance".

    It seems Leftists will never hesitate to lie if they feel it will help their argument. But is it worth it to you?

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Of course you are being dishonest here, aren't you?

    I said "OKgrannie said this and you gave it a "like" so i can assume there are at least two women who feel that their appearance is a factor".

    "A factor" is quite different then your claim that I said it was "All about appearance".

    It seems Leftists will never hesitate to lie if they feel it will help their argument. But is it worth it to you?
    This is your original statement, not mentioning any other health issues and implying that women choose abortion only for appearance and social issues. Not to minimize the importance of appearance or social issues, you are definitely projecting here when you claim someone else is dishonest. At the very least, you took those issues out of context to distort what was said.
    Right. It seems that many of them are not ready for that responsibility. Their appearance is more important, or their social life.
    "Though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start from now and make a brand new ending."
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