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Thread: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    1.)No, the studies are different...They are not apples to apples.
    2.)Plus, I agree it is about force, liberals forcing their values on the rest of society through judicial fiat.

    3.)Like I said before, and maintain, pro abortion is all about easing their own conscience by renaming what it is they are killing. It is deplorable.

    4.)Why do liberals hate children?
    1.)yes the studies are different in a different country and including all abortions
    the LEGAL abortions are what matters and again it doesnt matter because its about force
    2.) as soon as you say liberals you fail because many non liberals are pro-choice LOL, its shows your biased. the laws allowing pro-choice doesnt force anything on anybody this is a flat out lie, if you dont want to have an abortion nobody forces you to have one LMAO talking about being dishonest

    but if abortion was banned there would be force in forcing the woman to give birth

    3.) you are free to that opinion you simply dont get to force it on others

    4.) more nonsensical biased hyperbole LMAO be nice if you could come up with a logical or factual argument

    i know i know liberals are the devil, when i see some ill let them know LMAO
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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Have they created a counter for how many unwanted babies are born to poor unwed mothers and teenagers in Arkansas and how much that will cost taxpayers in other states?

    Social conservatism and fiscal conservatism has never been more in conflict.

    Every high school counselor and nurse should have the authority to dispense Plan B to students.

    Any female living near or below the poverty line should be able to get a free state-sponsored abortion.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by mr4anarchy View Post
    Have they created a counter for how many unwanted babies are born to poor unwed mothers and teenagers in Arkansas and how much that will cost taxpayers in other states?

    Social conservatism and fiscal conservatism has never been more in conflict.

    Every high school counselor and nurse should have the authority to dispense Plan B to students.

    Any female living near or below the poverty line should be able to get a free state-sponsored abortion.
    Why the **** would a high school consoler have the authority to given minor students medications?

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    North Dakota has upped the ante.

    North Dakota Senate approves "heartbeat" abortion ban

    (Reuters) - The North Dakota Senate approved what would be the most restrictive abortion law in the United States on Friday, a measure banning the procedure in most cases once a fetal heartbeat can be detected, as early as six weeks.

    Senators also approved a second bill on Friday that bans abortions based solely on genetic abnormalities, the first state ban of its kind if signed into law. The bill would also ban abortions based on the gender of the fetus, which would make North Dakota the fourth state to ban sex-selection based abortions.

    The bills, which passed the state House of Representatives last month, now head to Republican Governor Jack Dalrymple, who has not indicated whether he would sign them into law. He is expected to receive the bills on Monday.

    The "heartbeat" bill provides exceptions if an abortion would prevent the death or irreversible impairment of a pregnant woman but no exceptions for rape. It sets up a direct challenge to the Supreme Court's decision in Roe v. Wade that legalized abortion in 1973.

    Several states ban most abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy. Arkansas lawmakers earlier in March approved a ban on most abortions after 12 weeks of pregnancy that could take effect in August if it survives expected legal challenges.

    Full Story: North Dakota Senate approves heartbeat abortion ban | Reuters

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Pilot View Post
    North Dakota has upped the ante.
    That should encourage young woman to be extra cautious when having sex, and realize the serious consequences that might result.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    That should encourage young woman to be extra cautious when having sex, and realize the serious consequences that might result.
    There shouldn't be consequences. Why should they have to worry? That's what is so great about abortion; it eliminates an unnecessary consequence.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaLiberal View Post
    There shouldn't be consequences. Why should they have to worry? That's what is so great about abortion; it eliminates an unnecessary consequence.
    Children are an unnecessary consequence of sex? I've never head that argument before.

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Certainly we can. It is not up to any individual, including you, what moral standards are. The fact is that life is involved, and the taking of life. Of course morals must be involved.

    I think it should be allowed but also believe it to be immoral. There is no conflict there at all. It's the same with prostitution. Some feel it should be legal even while finding it immoral. There are many such laws.
    You're right to a point, moral standards are agreed and negotiated by wider society however wider society has also agreed that morals are not part of the reasoning behind whether we have / allow abortion or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The the direct opposite of the "A woman should have control over her own body' argument. Suddenly, after a required number of months, she no longer has control over her body and it now belongs to the State.. This 'viability' thing just doesn't stand because a baby, even after its born, is not completely 'viable' until many years later. We are still dealing with human life whether it is 'viable' or not.
    You're shifting the goalposts - viability is whether a child can survive outside the womb, if you wish to argue it's about feeding and providing for itself then most of us never are, we rely on others until our death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Much like the unwillingness to call it a baby, a person, or a potential human being. Those who want to control the language feel they control the debate.
    As I said, I have never had worries about calling it a baby / human / person etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    -- It is not black and white. Women should be made completely aware that they are taking a human life and that there is help available if they decide to give it up after the baby is born. But many pro abortionists are against even this counseling.
    This is where the discussion becomes US only, that information is widely available in other countries and abortions still go ahead. It's like the discussion about how abortion fits into the US constitution - which implies abortion only happens in the US and for specific reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    -- I don't think you're getting much argument on this 'viability' thing. Whether it is 'viable' or not it is still the taking of a human life.
    Of course a human life stops, but I go right back my beginning post on page 1. If you deny women abortion or limit their choices through legislation then their only recourse is illegal abortion. Either you somehow control all women's movements and and choices so that you can ensure the birth of every fetus or you don't. If you don't then you have to accept that women have certain choices and freedoms which are negotiable until the fetus is 24 weeks old and an abortion would kill a child who would otherwise survive outside the womb - also known as "viability."

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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    [QUOTE=Grant;1061559799]
    Certainly we can. It is not up to any individual, including you, what moral standards are. The fact is that life is involved, and the taking of life. Of course morals must be involved.
    It is up to the individual to determine his own moral standards. We have agreed in the country to freedom of conscience, and the only limitation is when that freedom impacts another person.

    I think it should be allowed but also believe it to be immoral. There is no conflict there at all. It's the same with prostitution. Some feel it should be legal even while finding it immoral. There are many such laws.
    Freedom of conscience again. Morality alone is not sufficient reason for law.


    The the direct opposite of the "A woman should have control over her own body' argument. Suddenly, after a required number of months, she no longer has control over her body and it now belongs to the State.. This 'viability' thing just doesn't stand because a baby, even after its born, is not completely 'viable' until many years later. We are still dealing with human life whether it is 'viable' or not.
    You're confusing the definition of "viable" with self-sufficiency. "Viable" means able to survive outside the womb.



    Much like the unwillingness to call it a baby, a person, or a potential human being. Those who want to control the language feel they control the debate.
    Aren't you wanting to control the language by DEMANDING the zef be called a "baby", "a person", or "a human"?




    It is not black and white. Women should be made completely aware that they are taking a human life and that there is help available if they decide to give it up after the baby is born. But many pro abortionists are against even this counseling.

    I don't think you're getting much argument on this 'viability' thing. Whether it is 'viable' or not it is still the taking of a human life.
    Women are preventing "a human life." Women can give life, or they can refuse to give that gift.
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    re: Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    You're shifting the goalposts - viability is whether a child can survive outside the womb, if you wish to argue it's about feeding and providing for itself then most of us never are, we rely on others until our death.
    No, i'm ignoring the arbitrary goal posts that were established strictly as a compromise timeline. What make a baby less 'viable' one day or week to the next? They still need constant care and would not survive long without outside help. These goalposts can be moved at the whim of any group with the legal power to move them so may as well be in sand. My interest is more in the immorality of abortion, the seriousness of taking another human life, and looking at the euphemisms we use to disguise what we are really doing to these babies.

    As I said, I have never had worries about calling it a baby / human / person etc.
    That's a good thing, I believe, but many do.
    This is where the discussion becomes US only, that information is widely available in other countries and abortions still go ahead. It's like the discussion about how abortion fits into the US constitution - which implies abortion only happens in the US and for specific reasons.
    Quite right, but many outsiders are drawn to what happens in the US because it is the political and cultural center of the world and what happens there may happen to us one day or we may know programs what to avoid.
    Of course a human life stops, but I go right back my beginning post on page 1. If you deny women abortion or limit their choices through legislation then their only recourse is illegal abortion. Either you somehow control all women's movements and and choices so that you can ensure the birth of every fetus or you don't. If you don't then you have to accept that women have certain choices and freedoms which are negotiable until the fetus is 24 weeks old and an abortion would kill a child who would otherwise survive outside the womb - also known as "viability."
    I agree that abortion must be legal but would never argue in favor it. I also see the breakup of families but there is little I can do about that either. And with all the talk of 'women having certain certain choices and freedoms' there is not equal time given to women's responsibilities. In fact even bringing up the question seems to be a social taboo. But we have seen men's attitudes change towards women over the last generation and in a direction that no one recognized would happened when all of this began.

    Women in charge of their own bodies? It seems so.

    “Today, in what Harvey Mansfield calls our "gender-neutral" society," there are no social norms. Eight decades after the Titanic, a German-built ferry en route from Estonia to Sweden sank in the Baltic Sea. Of the 1,051 passengers, only 139 lived to tell the tale. But the distribution of the survivors was very different from that of the Titanic. Women and children first? No female under fifteen or over sixty-five made it. Only 5 percent of all women passengers lived. The bulk of the survivors were young men. Forty-three percent of men aged 20 to 24 made it.” - Mark Steyn

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