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AP: VP of Venezuela Has Announced Hugo Chavez has Died

Consumption is not investment, so exporting is not the same as being "dependant on foreign capital," Yeah they are going to make up that 43% overtime, as the economy grows.

Read the article, they arn't forcing people to take loans, they are forcing banks to offer loans, and low interest ... it's financial regulation to make sure it services the poorest in the country ... I think that is actually extremely good policy that would be good here in the US. It applies to state banks and chartered private banks (all banks are state chartered and insured, so no **** the state has a right to regulate) ... I love that, Chavez regulates the bank to make sure they offer low interest credit for low income housing and you claim "HE'S FORCING PEOPLE TO GO IN DEBT." Common now.




That isn't what I said, I said many countries ... like the US have excess capacity as a problem, i.e. tons of capital and no market, the fact that the opposite is the problem in Venezuela is a good thing, because it has plenty of space to grow.

I was responding to you talking about manufacturing capacity growth, not shortages, don't mix arguments.

Compare the balance of trade to before Chavez .... it's gotten BETTER.

Venezuela GDP Probably Grew 4 Percent in 2011 on Higher Federal Spending - Bloomberg

Non oil GDP up 4.3%, manufacturing up 3.5%, construction up 3.4%.

Better is better.

Perhaps I need to show you the chart again about where their economic growth is completely dependent on oil revenue? Cut out 43% of it, and their economy implodes. Pretty simple concept there.

Forced is forced, they are forcing investment and their investment rates are still pathetic.

You wouldn't see shortages if it has no market. Besides, that only applies if the rate of growth in capacity is too high, not if it is too low. "plenty of room to grow" really translates to "bad manufacturing policy under Chavez and therefore vastly underperforming leading to widespread shortage." It's pretty obvious that you aren't understanding your own argument.

I'll make my point again so you stop misunderstanding my argument. They have been growing, but that growth is average for the region, manufacturing growth is weak, their currency is overvalued, their investment rate is low, and any decline in oil revenue leads to a proportional contraction.
 
Perhaps I need to show you the chart again about where their economic growth is completely dependent on oil revenue? Cut out 43% of it, and their economy implodes. Pretty simple concept there.

Forced is forced, they are forcing investment and their investment rates are still pathetic.

You wouldn't see shortages if it has no market. Besides, that only applies if the rate of growth in capacity is too high, not if it is too low. "plenty of room to grow" really translates to "bad manufacturing policy under Chavez and therefore vastly underperforming leading to widespread shortage." It's pretty obvious that you aren't understanding your own argument.

I'll make my point again so you stop misunderstanding my argument. They have been growing, but that growth is average for the region, manufacturing growth is weak, their currency is overvalued, their investment rate is low, and any decline in oil revenue leads to a proportional contraction.

Most of the growth is Oil, but not all of it .. and it makes sense that most of it is OIl since they nationalized it.

Forced is not forced, unless you consider every regulation of banking as forced .... in which case every country forces their banks to do stuff.

If you had no market you'd see surplus', or excess capacity, and saying that the situation in Venezuela with room to grow is better than no market and excess capacity ... WHen the market grows faster than the manufacturing capacity you'll have shortages, that's expected, but its positive that aggrigate demand is higher.

The region has been following social-democratic policies, the currecny was overvalued before chavez, manufacturing growth is normal and growing, investment rates are not bad, and public investment is high, and no **** if oil drops they loose GDP, but thats true of any oil producing country.

Here's what else is true, poverty has been cut tremendously, living standards have risen, new economic models have been implimented and are successfull (such as cooperatives), the economy is independant now, rather than a psudo colony.
 
The region has been following social-democratic policies....

Hence the problem...This is what people in this country like you would like to see come here, even though you deny it....

Social democracy is a political ideology that considers itself to be a form of reformist democratic socialism.[1] It advocates for a peaceful, evolutionary transition of the economy to socialism through progressive social reform of capitalism.[2][3]

Social democracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Originally Posted by Medusa
emprica ,l dont have any utopia because l know humans are selfish by nature .this utopia can never come true under current conditions .in fact this current condition has never changed since humans learnt to own private properties during agricultural period .
You and I have extremely conflicting views of humanity__As we know, Homo Sapiens began as savages who lived by the law of the jungle without conscience or morality_

But according to you, we have changed very little and for the most part are still selfish, uncaring, cold-hearted barbarians who need government to force us to care for one another_

While my history lessons along with my personal observations has led me to believe that humanity is now more compassionate and charitable than ever and continues to evolve_

You are obviously the victim of Marxist Indoctrination which has instructed you to trust only your Progressive teachings and to ignore common sense realities that conflict with those lessons_

Why is it that so many that hate capitalism, live in capitalist countries?
you ask a question which has its own answer in itself
So you think you need to force people to live how you want them to live?
it is your own claim

no need to lie...............
:lamo Really? :lamo And what does that mean? You mean a conservative that likes free markets, and the ability for anyone to make it? Yes, guilty.
Regarding this discussion about "capitalism" for which Medusa has concluded is unfair and evil_

Please consider these two absolute realities:

(1) Capitalism created the wealthiest, freest, most powerful nation in the history of the world_

(2) More people want to immigrate to the United States than any other nation in the world_

(especially poor and oppressed immigrants, which sort of flies in the face of Medusa's belief)

conservatives like conserving money ?

hewhe
Conservatives only "like conserving" the things that have made the United States so successful_

Capitalism benefits anyone who is willing to work toward the level of success they wish to attain_
 
Most of the growth is Oil, but not all of it .. and it makes sense that most of it is OIl since they nationalized it.

Forced is not forced, unless you consider every regulation of banking as forced .... in which case every country forces their banks to do stuff.

If you had no market you'd see surplus', or excess capacity, and saying that the situation in Venezuela with room to grow is better than no market and excess capacity ... WHen the market grows faster than the manufacturing capacity you'll have shortages, that's expected, but its positive that aggrigate demand is higher.

The region has been following social-democratic policies, the currecny was overvalued before chavez, manufacturing growth is normal and growing, investment rates are not bad, and public investment is high, and no **** if oil drops they loose GDP, but thats true of any oil producing country.

Here's what else is true, poverty has been cut tremendously, living standards have risen, new economic models have been implimented and are successfull (such as cooperatives), the economy is independant now, rather than a psudo colony.

This is getting old. I have no interest in dealing with your vague and baseless assertions over and over again. All of the points you have made, I have already addressed and if you refuse to refute me without falling back on your ideological talking points then I'm not going to waste my time.
 
Well for one Maduro is openly threatening him......which you see in that piece. Now there is more.....Right?
Ok??? Point being?? Guy has stranded election before and "threatened Chavez" but nothing happened.
Because Maduro is a thug wannabe.....and thugs always resort to thuggish ways! ;)
How is he a "thug wannabe"?
 
Ok??? Point being?? Guy has stranded election before and "threatened Chavez" but nothing happened.

How is he a "thug wannabe"?

Well didn't he use to be Rangels Bodyguard? Also was he not an UNofficial trade unionist. Didnt he and his wife get Chavez out of Prison? Are they not Chavez's Power Couple.
 
Well didn't he use to be Rangels Bodyguard? Also was he not an UNofficial trade unionist. Didnt he and his wife get Chavez out of Prison? Are they not Chavez's Power Couple.

So what? He protested and visited Chavez in prison. Whats the problem with being connected to Chavez?
 
So what? He protested and visited Chavez in prison. Whats the problem with being connected to Chavez?

So what, I notice you don't bring up his time as a Bodyguard and as Unoffical Unionist. What do you think it means?
 
So what, I notice you don't bring up his time as a Bodyguard and as Unoffical Unionist. What do you think it means?

I fail to see your point. Whats the matter with being a bodyguard and a bus union leader? You gonna elaborate more are just sit here and keep on asking very vague questions?
 
I fail to see your point. Whats the matter with being a bodyguard and a bus union leader? You gonna elaborate more are just sit here and keep on asking very vague questions?

I didn't say there was anything wrong with being any of them. Your the one that had a problem with the term Thug Wannabe. Let me guess you think bodyguards and a bus UN-Offical union leader makes nicey nice.....Right? Also did any of the Protests over Chavez being locked up become violent?
 
I will never forget the sheer madness of Chavez. His tv show, his comments on Bush, it was funny as **** if you werent one of his victims/countrymen.
 
I didn't say there was anything wrong with being any of them. Your the one that had a problem with the term Thug Wannabe. Let me guess you think bodyguards and a bus UN-Offical union leader makes nicey nice.....Right?

So since he was a union and a bodyguard that makes him a "thug"? How logical.
Yes i bet since he was a union leader and a bodyguard he is gonna be a tyrannical mad man being violent to everyone :roll:
Going off that knowledge i guess any president that was once in the military must be a "thug" too..

Also did any of the Protests over Chavez being locked up become violent?
Yes. Protests before the coup were also violent. Whats your point?
 
So since he was a union and a bodyguard that makes him a "thug"? How logical.

Yeah that and the Venezuelan Press talking about how he would like to elbow his way up front to the cameras.

A rabble-rousing legislator who was on the front line of the successful effort to defeat a brief coup against Chavez in 2002, Maduro rose to head the National Assembly, swapping the blue jeans and plaid shirts of a union leader for sharp suits.

Even in his smarter attire, Maduro used to elbow through reporters to get to the appetizer table before presidential news conferences.

Hugo Chavez's successor Nicolas Maduro a devotee of Satya Sai Baba - Indian Express Mobile


th


Indeed my good Man Watson....."Logical," Indeed! :lol:
 
Yeah that and the Venezuelan Press talking about how he would like to elbow his way up front to the cameras.

A rabble-rousing legislator who was on the front line of the successful effort to defeat a brief coup against Chavez in 2002, Maduro rose to head the National Assembly, swapping the blue jeans and plaid shirts of a union leader for sharp suits.

Even in his smarter attire, Maduro used to elbow through reporters to get to the appetizer table before presidential news conferences.

Hugo Chavez's successor Nicolas Maduro a devotee of Satya Sai Baba - Indian Express Mobile


th


Indeed my good Man Watson....."Logical," Indeed! :lol:

:lamo wow! so violent of him! That was lame
 
:lamo wow! so violent of him! That was lame

Yeah, especially with that part about being on the front line of a successful effort to defeat a brief coup against Chavez. Were you under the impression that he was like Bouncer in a bar when playing bodyguard or Unofficial union leader. :lamo

I mean if you want to call him Brutish You can.....IMO he is just a Thug Wannabe. Meaning he just don't have what it takes to be the real thug! Maybe its the Bus Driver thingy. :mrgreen:
 
Yeah, especially with that part about being on the front line of a successful effort to defeat a brief coup against Chavez. Were you under the impression that he was like Bouncer in a bar when playing bodyguard or Unofficial union leader. :lamo

I mean if you want to call him Brutish You can.....IMO he is just a Thug Wannabe. Meaning he just don't have what it takes to be the real thug! Maybe its the Bus Driver thingy. :mrgreen:

So since he is a "thug wanna be" because he was a bodyguard, he "elbowed" his way to an appateizier table, and met with Chavez in jail when he was arrested that means Capriles should get extra security? Man your attacks are lame.
 
So since he is a "thug wanna be" because he was a bodyguard, he "elbowed" his way to an appateizier table, and met with Chavez in jail when he was arrested that means Capriles should get extra security? Man your attacks are lame.

Well that's just it.....they weren't designed to be attacks otherwise I would be talking about his azz like he like was Willie Lump Lump.

Its real simple where I come from.....if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like one. Then It's Duck! ;)
 
Well that's just it.....they weren't designed to be attacks otherwise I would be talking about his azz like he like was Willie Lump Lump.

Its real simple where I come from.....if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like one. Then It's Duck! ;)

So if your in the military then your a thug to right? C'mon man your attacks blow
 
So if your in the military then your a thug to right? C'mon man your attacks blow

Right that's why Maduro is running around talking about How Capriles is Gay. How he has a Woman and that Capriles doesn't. Calling him out and making fun of him. All Publicly huh? Yeah whatever.....and the Chavez enemies injected him with Cancer. Right. Give me a friggin break. :roll:
 
Right that's why Maduro is running around talking about How Capriles is Gay. How he has a Woman and that Capriles doesn't. Calling him out and making fun of him. All Publicly huh? Yeah whatever.....and the Chavez enemies injected him with Cancer. Right. Give me a friggin break. :roll:

Ohhh god here we go :roll:
Instead of talking about actual issues we wanna talk about fluff pieces carry on.
 
Ohhh god here we go :roll:
Instead of talking about actual issues we wanna talk about fluff pieces carry on.

Yeah deflect all you want.....I called him a thug wannabe. His actions show him for what he is. Next time don't let Rabble Rouser throw you off.
rolleyes.png
 
Im done debating about if Maduro is a "thug wannabe"

Anyways back to something meaningful...

1. Never in the history of Latin America, has a political leader had such incontestable democratic legitimacy. Since coming to power in 1999, there were 16 elections in Venezuela. Hugo Chavez won 15, the last on October 7, 2012. He defeated his rivals with a margin of 10-20 percentage points.

2. All international bodies, from the European Union to the Organization of American States, to the Union of South American Nations and the Carter Center, were unanimous in recognizing the transparency of the vote counts.

10. The number of doctors increased from 20 per 100,000 population in 1999 to 80 per 100,000 in 2010, or an increase of 400%.

15. From 1999 to 2011, the poverty rate decreased from 42.8% to 26.5% and the rate of extreme poverty fell from 16.6% in 1999 to 7% in 2011.

16. In the rankings of the Human Development Index (HDI) of the United Nations Program for Development (UNDP), Venezuela jumped from 83 in 2000 (0.656) at position 73 in 2011 (0.735), and entered into the category Nations with 'High HDI'.

20. In 1999, 82% of the population had access to safe drinking water. Now it is 95%.

27. Since 1999, the average calories consumed by Venezuelans increased by 50% thanks to the Food Mission that created a chain of 22,000 food stores (MERCAL, Houses Food, Red PDVAL), where products are subsidized up to 30%. Meat consumption increased by 75% since 1999.

29. The malnutrition rate fell from 21% in 1998 to less than 3% in 2012.

33. Since 1999, more than 50,000 cooperatives have been created in all sectors of the economy.

34. The unemployment rate fell from 15.2% in 1998 to 6.4% in 2012, with the creation of more than 4 million jobs.

40. Public debt fell from 45% of GDP in 1998 to 20% in 2011. Venezuela withdrew from the International Monetary Fund and World Bank, after early repayment of all its debts.

41. In 2012, the growth rate was 5.5% in Venezuela, one of the highest in the world.

42. GDP per capita rose from $ 4,100 in 1999 to $ 10,810 in 2011.

50. Hugo Chavez played a key role in the peace process in Colombia. According to President Juan Manuel Santos, "if we go into a solid peace project, with clear and concrete progress, progress achieved ever before with the FARC, is also due to the dedication and commitment of Chavez and the government of Venezuela."

50 Truths about Hugo Chavez and the Bolivarian Revolution | venezuelanalysis.com

Chavez was one of the greatest leaders in the world.
 
Hence the problem...This is what people in this country like you would like to see come here, even though you deny it....

I think people in the US WOULD like social democracy ... and for good reason, South America has been improving leaps and bounds.
 
This is getting old. I have no interest in dealing with your vague and baseless assertions over and over again. All of the points you have made, I have already addressed and if you refuse to refute me without falling back on your ideological talking points then I'm not going to waste my time.

I did refute you, showing data, you're whole argument is "it's not perfect" ... Yeah, but it's better ... a lot better, thus you have a success.
 
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