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Thread: AP: VP of Venezuela Has Announced Hugo Chavez has Died

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    Re: AP: VP of Venezuela Has Announced Hugo Chavez has Died

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Thats nonsense.

    Attachment 67143884Attachment 67143885Attachment 67143886Attachment 67143887
    Investment and GDP Growth in Venezuela | venezuelanalysis.com

    Manufacturing has increased, as has trade, as has capital formation.

    I'd like to see the piece by Rueters.
    When you have that much oil, it isn't difficult. The man was a tyrrant and an evil bastard.
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    Re: AP: VP of Venezuela Has Announced Hugo Chavez has Died

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    When you have that much oil, it isn't difficult. The man was a tyrrant and an evil bastard.
    It obviously is, since previous leaders havnt' done it, and since other countries with natural resources havn't done it.

    It's funny right wingers scream tyrant as soon as the whitehouse screams tyrant, yet are silent when it comes to tyrants that are ACTUAL tyrants that the US supports.

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    Re: AP: VP of Venezuela Has Announced Hugo Chavez has Died

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    What was the joke ...

    The joke was that Venezuela's modest even-if-real economic improvement came from the fact that it's prime export, making up 95% of all exports from the country, had grown in value by orders of magnitude. Venezuela had more money and less people were poor. SHOCKER. For that to be the results of Chavez policy I made the comical assumption that he must have raised changed the price of oil as part of his recovery program.

    As the CNN fact check confirms, Chavez did LESS for the poor than previous presidents, and the only thing that happened in that time was a huge influx of petro-dollars.



    That chart is EXTREMELY subjective and doesn't actually show the reality, just peoples perception, which is expected in a polerized country.

    Actually, you are being EXTREMELY subjective in choosing to ignore the evidence on display. You can't even depend on the election results as EVERYONE KNOWS they were rigged. From the control of the media in order to control reporting on the opposition to a huge number of districts reporting THE EXACT SAME TURNOUT AND VOTE TALLY, only a true believer can possibly believe that Venezuela was actually a democracy under Chavez.



    That number was taken by an organization called "Criminal Justice International Associates," which is just one right wing dude, which a history of anti-Chavez nonsense, look up the source.

    What drivel. Essentially you will discount any negative report on CHavez... because it is negative about Chavez.

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    Re: AP: VP of Venezuela Has Announced Hugo Chavez has Died

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    The joke was that Venezuela's modest even-if-real economic improvement came from the fact that it's prime export, making up 95% of all exports from the country, had grown in value by orders of magnitude. Venezuela had more money and less people were poor. SHOCKER. For that to be the results of Chavez policy I made the comical assumption that he must have raised changed the price of oil as part of his recovery program.

    As the CNN fact check confirms, Chavez did LESS for the poor than previous presidents, and the only thing that happened in that time was a huge influx of petro-dollars.
    Yet non Oil revenue has also gone up significantly, so it isn't all just Oil, also without Chavez' reforms all that oil money wouldn't have made people less poor, it would have only made Oil executives richer. Why hasn't the oil spike done the same in other countries?

    Also what CNN fact check?

    Actually, you are being EXTREMELY subjective in choosing to ignore the evidence on display. You can't even depend on the election results as EVERYONE KNOWS they were rigged. From the control of the media in order to control reporting on the opposition to a huge number of districts reporting THE EXACT SAME TURNOUT AND VOTE TALLY, only a true believer can possibly believe that Venezuela was actually a democracy under Chavez.
    Errr, the elections were monitered by the UN and shown to be clean ... the same cannot be said for many US elections.

    What drivel. Essentially you will discount any negative report on CHavez... because it is negative about Chavez.
    Look up the source .... seriously.

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    Re: AP: VP of Venezuela Has Announced Hugo Chavez has Died

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Yet non Oil revenue has also gone up significantly, so it isn't all just Oil, also without Chavez' reforms all that oil money wouldn't have made people less poor, it would have only made Oil executives richer. Why hasn't the oil spike done the same in other countries?

    Also what CNN fact check?



    Errr, the elections were monitered by the UN and shown to be clean ... the same cannot be said for many US elections.



    Look up the source .... seriously.
    So every Venezuelan now has a more equal slice of the cake. The trouble is, that cake has not been getting much bigger.

    "Venezuela is the fifth largest economy in Latin America, but during the last decade, it's been the worst performer in GDP per capita growth," says Arturo Franco of the Center for International Development at Harvard University.

    As Mr Franco says, it depends on how you measure Venezuela's progress.
    If you compare life under Mr Chavez with the previous 20 years, under a now discredited two-party system widely blamed for rampant corruption, the Chavez era is preferable.
    But if you look at the superior economic performance of neighbouring Brazil and Colombia during the same period, it suddenly doesn't look so rosy.

    In the words of Michael Henderson at Capital Economics: "The current malaise is the product of years of capital flight and under-investment, which has hollowed out the country's productive base."

    High inflation, still nudging 20% a year, doesn't help either.

    As survey organisation Consensus Economics says: "Soaring inflation and government spending - coupled with currency and capital controls - have created a widening fiscal deficit.
    "The authorities are increasingly reliant on external debt to finance this."
    For "external debt", read loans from China. According to Bloomberg news agency, the state-run China Development Bank has lent Venezuela $42.5bn over a five-year period.

    Unless PDVSA's underperformance can be remedied, those debts will remain and will probably grow as the country's gap between spending and income widens.

    As a result, Mr Chavez bequeaths a nation beset by crumbling infrastructure, unsustainable public spending and underperforming industry.
    But there are strong suspicions that much money has been wasted - not just through corruption, but also sheer incompetence
    .


    Pretty much says it there RG!

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    Re: AP: VP of Venezuela Has Announced Hugo Chavez has Died

    VP of Venezuela Has Announced Hugo Chavez has Died
    Good riddence...May he be experiencing the smell of sulfur for eternity.
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    Re: AP: VP of Venezuela Has Announced Hugo Chavez has Died

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Yet non Oil revenue has also gone up significantly

    INFLATION went up significantly. It was at 20% at the time of Chavez death. Do you actually understand what drives 20% inflation in a country? I'll give you a hint: it's not from economic growth.


    The GNI of Venezuela has been mostly stagnant during Chavez stint as president while GDP has grown (albeit weakly). This disparity doesn't come about by real economic growth, it comes about by growing national debt. So Venezuela's "growth" has all been smoke and mirrors fueled by bad currency policy (inflation) and bad over all fiscal policy (rising debt). Essentially the government pumped more currency into the economy (which didn't bother Chavez and his cronies since their wealth was pinned to an international commodity), putting more paper in the hands of his people so he could claim a victory against poverty, but it didn't help the actual Venezuelans since the costs of goods and services are rising to keep pace.

    The Per capita GNI in constant dollars declined under Chavez until 2003, when *surprise* the cost of crude oil skyrocketed. So, the ACTUAL income rise in Venezuela in that time was primarily from the oil industry.

    This is all fundamental economics at work here.


    so it isn't all just Oil, also without Chavez' reforms all that oil money wouldn't have made people less poor, it would have only made Oil executives richer. Why hasn't the oil spike done the same in other countries?

    It DID make oil executives richer: CHAVEZ. But he also had his cabal of fellow billionaires at the top of the Venezuelan food chain who benefited from Chavez graft so long as they played along..


    Also what CNN fact check?

    It was already linked in the thread. Go back and read it.


    Errr, the elections were monitered by the UN and shown to be clean ... the same cannot be said for many US elections.

    As has already been shown, the one UN inspection run by the Carter foundation was later found by an independent MIT study to have clear signs of rampant vote tampering exactly as I described above.


    Look up the source .... seriously.

    I have, have you read the source? Given that everyone other than the die hard socialists accept his report as definitive I will go with that until you can provide some other evidence that we can discuss that amounts to more than ad hominem.

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    Re: AP: VP of Venezuela Has Announced Hugo Chavez has Died

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    INFLATION went up significantly. It was at 20% at the time of Chavez death. Do you actually understand what drives 20% inflation in a country? I'll give you a hint: it's not from economic growth.


    The GNI of Venezuela has been mostly stagnant during Chavez stint as president while GDP has grown (albeit weakly). This disparity doesn't come about by real economic growth, it comes about by growing national debt. So Venezuela's "growth" has all been smoke and mirrors fueled by bad currency policy (inflation) and bad over all fiscal policy (rising debt). Essentially the government pumped more currency into the economy (which didn't bother Chavez and his cronies since their wealth was pinned to an international commodity), putting more paper in the hands of his people so he could claim a victory against poverty, but it didn't help the actual Venezuelans since the costs of goods and services are rising to keep pace.

    The Per capita GNI in constant dollars declined under Chavez until 2003, when *surprise* the cost of crude oil skyrocketed. So, the ACTUAL income rise in Venezuela in that time was primarily from the oil industry.

    This is all fundamental economics at work here.
    Yeah ... inflation went up, but it was up higher before, it's going in the right direction.

    Also economic growth many does DOES create inflation.

    BTW this is not a problem unique to Chavez look at inflation before chavez, it was a problem there before.

    Also where are you getting the GNI being stagnant?

    gni_venezuela.jpg

    Also poverty rates and living standard rates are inflation adjusted ...

    So that growth is DISPITE the inflation.

    It DID make oil executives richer: CHAVEZ. But he also had his cabal of fellow billionaires at the top of the Venezuelan food chain who benefited from Chavez graft so long as they played along..
    Not really, if you believe that then I guess the venezuelan economy grew without the Oil, but the fact is the Oil money wenet to help the economy

    It was already linked in the thread. Go back and read it.
    What post

    I have, have you read the source? Given that everyone other than the die hard socialists accept his report as definitive I will go with that until you can provide some other evidence that we can discuss that amounts to more than ad hominem.
    NO ONE accepts that report as definitive, the media ran with it, but that source is not reputable AT ALL, infact its one guy, not an economist, who's basically just an anti-Chavez activist, what's his sources for CHaves' wealth? How did he calculate it?

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    Re: AP: VP of Venezuela Has Announced Hugo Chavez has Died

    Quote Originally Posted by RGacky3 View Post
    Yeah ... inflation went up, but it was up higher before, it's going in the right direction.
    It's has bounced between 20 and 40% his entire time as president. It has no direction.

    And I'm not holding water for any previous Venezuelan president, just pointing out to you that your rosy glasses view of the Venezuelan economy is flawed.


    Also economic growth many does DOES create inflation.

    Growing scarcity of commodities and/or a growing supply in currency leads to inflation. Economic growth is neither of those. In the case of Venezuela it's been a combination of the two.


    BTW this is not a problem unique to Chavez look at inflation before chavez, it was a problem there before.
    I never said it wasn't. But if you want to claim economic success under CHavez you have to actually show it. The GNI versus GDP comparison in combination with the inflation doesn't paint the picture of a healthy economy. The only real source of economic advancement in Venezuela has come from the oil industry.

    In fact, the primary reason that the GNI really rose in 2003 was because that was the year when the oil industry was finally nationalized and it's profits were counted in GNI.


    Also where are you getting the GNI being stagnant?

    gni_venezuela.jpg

    Care to provide a readable graph? And yes, as I said, the GNI was stagnant/declining under Chavez until 2003. When he nationalized the oil industry the GNI started counting all of it's profits towards GNI, AND the cost of crude also sky rocketed.


    Also poverty rates and living standard rates are inflation adjusted ...

    US poverty rates are inflation adjusted, but there is no set definition from country to country for the "poverty line".... so what was Venezuela's criteria? Please provide citation.


    So that growth is DISPITE the inflation.

    You haven't shown that.


    Not really, if you believe that then I guess the venezuelan economy grew without the Oil, but the fact is the Oil money wenet to help the economy

    Because Chavez said so? I know that seems to be enough for you, but not for me.


    What post

    Really? Page 13. Go there. Post is by Harshaw.



    NO ONE accepts that report as definitive, the media ran with it, but that source is not reputable AT ALL, infact its one guy, not an economist, who's basically just an anti-Chavez activist, what's his sources for CHaves' wealth? How did he calculate it?

    Hah, "the media all ran the story but nobody thought it was reputable!" .... I see a flaw in your reasoning....

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    Re: AP: VP of Venezuela Has Announced Hugo Chavez has Died

    At 2:45 PM on Tuesday March 5th 2013, the world became a better place when the Communist dictator Hugo Chavez died like a sniveling coward as he begged not to die while blaming the United States for the "pelvic" cancer that was eating away at his manhood, of which I doubt there was very much_

    I'm hoping there's a very special place for him and his murderous comrades; Fidel, Che, Adolf, Vladimir and Mao_
    When a crime is ignored ~ it becomes flagrant;
    When a crime is rewarded ~ it becomes epidemic:

    No Amnesty No Exception

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