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Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

Kreton

Kreton

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Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR | News - Home
"I understand if your boss is telling you you can't do it," the dispatcher said. "But ... as a human being ... you know . is there anybody that's willing to help this lady and not let her die?"

"Not at this time," the nurse answered.
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This is the sad state our country is in. It is a messed up situation but this woman/her employer are right that they could have been sued and probably would have lost if they had intervened. The woman, and everyone else around there, should be ashamed of themselves none the less.
 
muciti said:
Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR | News - Home


This is the sad state our country is in. It is a messed up situation but this woman/her employer are right that they could have been sued and probably would have lost if they had intervened. The woman, and everyone else around there, should be ashamed of themselves none the less.
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Isn't she and/or the employer much more likely to be sued for not trying CPR? They stood by and watched in defiance of the instructions of the 911 operator and basic medical training.
 
It's truly a travesty that someone trained in CPR would refuse to give it to a dying patient because company policies would forbid it.
 
Pilot said:
Isn't she and/or the employer much more likely to be sued for not trying CPR? They stood by and watched in defiance of the instructions of the 911 operator and basic medical training.
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There used to be good samaritan laws. If you had been trained and if you acted based on that training, you where safe from civil suits as I understood the laws. Not sure of the current status, or even if those where federal or state laws.
 
Redress said:
There used to be good samaritan laws. If you had been trained and if you acted based on that training, you where safe from civil suits as I understood the laws. Not sure of the current status, or even if those where federal or state laws.
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I would hope they are still in effect. I would personally rather take my chances in court or unemployment than live knowing I stood by and didn't at least try.
 
I don't want to take sides as I think we do not know all the facts. I heard that her family is OK with what happened. The woman may have a "do not resuscitate" order. In that case the nurse could have been sued for disobeying a lawful order. Older people are very frail, and the possibility of breaking her ribs is very high.
 
66gardeners said:
I don't want to take sides as I think we do not know all the facts. I heard that her family is OK with what happened. The woman may have a "do not resuscitate" order. In that case the nurse could have been sued for disobeying a lawful order. Older people are very frail, and the possibility of breaking her ribs is very high.
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Valid point, but I would think she would have relayed that information to the dispatcher, especially after they became adamant that she try CPR.
 
Redress said:
There used to be good samaritan laws. If you had been trained and if you acted based on that training, you where safe from civil suits as I understood the laws. Not sure of the current status, or even if those where federal or state laws.
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There still are and they are state laws. I am not sure a nurse would actually be able to avail themselves of it though since the profession has a standard of practices separate from just what the law alone says. I think at the very least the nurses license should be suspended.
 
muciti said:
Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR | News - Home


This is the sad state our country is in. It is a messed up situation but this woman/her employer are right that they could have been sued and probably would have lost if they had intervened. The woman, and everyone else around there, should be ashamed of themselves none the less.
Click to expand...
This was the understanding my family had when we moved my grandmother into a home with advanced Alzheimer's. Were she resuscitated after an episode that would have only prolonged her suffering.

The woman's caretakers knew and would have had to specifically agree to the DNR policy when they moved this woman into one of these homes. It was no secret. This is what the family wanted.

It's good that the nurse followed the policy, as this was the wish of the family.
 
Fisher said:
There still are and they are state laws. I am not sure a nurse would actually be able to avail themselves of it though since the profession has a standard of practices separate from just what the law alone says. I think at the very least the nurses license should be suspended.
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Why should her license be suspended? She did not violate any doctor's order.
 
Jerry said:
This was the understanding my family had when we moved my grandmother into a home with advanced Alzheimers. Were she appreciated after an episode that would have only prolonged her suffering.

The woman's caretakers knew and would have had to specifically agree to the DNR policy when they moved this woman into one of these homes. It was no secret. This is what the family wanted. Who are you to judge that?
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Well, according to some members of the forum, a 911 operator's opinion supercedes all contracts, laws and personal choices. Whatever a 911 operator tell you to do, you must do so immediately and if you go to prison for doing so, well that also is your civic duty - or so some on this forum think. In their opinion, NO ONE has any right to a DNR agreement. A right to life no matter what thing I guess. And anyone who doesn't agree and proactively do everything to oppose DNR agreements is a murderer.
 
Pilot said:
Isn't she and/or the employer much more likely to be sued for not trying CPR? They stood by and watched in defiance of the instructions of the 911 operator and basic medical training.
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It's my understanding that only "first responders" ie LEOs, paramedics and nurses, etc, have a duty to treat anyone. Even CNAs reserve the right to refuse to treat, just as you and I do.
 
911 operators are telephone receptionists and nothing else. They have no authority and nothing they say offers any protection.

Setting aside an DNR agreement, CPR on an 86 year old woman could easily be lethal. Show me medical material that CPR in that situation was correct. Was the 911 operator a licensed doctor? Seems you think so.
 
joko104 said:
911 operators are telephone receptionists and nothing else. They have no authority and nothing they say offers any protection.

Setting aside an DNR agreement, CPR on an 86 year old woman could easily be lethal. Show me medical material that CPR in that situation was correct. Was the 911 operator a licensed doctor? Seems you think so.
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True, but with a sympathetic jury, I could see the non-action lawsuit being worse than attempting but failing.
 
Pilot said:
True, but with a sympathetic jury, I could see the non-action lawsuit being worse than attempting but failing.
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Not if there was a Do Not Revive statement that had been signed by that 86 year old woman. It also will depend on the care contract. If the law would not allow a judgement for those or other reasons, a judge would not let it go to a jury.

The legality is that juries determine facts, but judges determine law. If "law" does not allow a judgment on undisputed facts, then the jury does not get to decide the case. The case has to make a prima facie (on it's face) case before a defense is offered, or the judge is to dismiss the case as a matter of law.
 
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It depends on the quality of life the woman had to bring her back to. If she had a DNR and indicated she was suffering without hope or was in a semi vegetative state, then we aren't qualified from a distance to have made that judgement. It shows a lack of compassion to force someone to exist in misery, when nature is ready for them to have peace.
 
joko104 said:
Why should her license be suspended? She did not violate any doctor's order.
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Following doctor's orders or her employment policies are not the only duties a nurse is subject to. Her license is predicated on another set of rules. If she were walking down the street, she could have just kept on walking by. She was not. She was in an employment setting as a nurse and quite frankly interfered with the 911 operators efforts to get someone on the telephone who would try to save the woman's life.
 
Pilot said:
Valid point, but I would think she would have relayed that information to the dispatcher, especially after they became adamant that she try CPR.
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Yes, I agree that it is bizare to call 911 when there is no intention of providing care for this woman. Who else do you call if someone is dying though? The body does need to be taken away.
 
66gardeners said:
Yes, I agree that it is bizare to call 911 when there is no intention of providing care for this woman. Who else do you call if someone is dying though? The body does need to be taken away.
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Eventually, you call a doctor to confirm the death, then the coroners office or funeral picks up the body. Why 911 was called if no attempt to help was being offered is really the whole debacle.
 
The only reason this is in the news is to give the public a baseline of fear that a lack of medical care will kill innocent people and therefore WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING!!

Lots of elderly die every day. Lots of elderly could have been saved but have DNRs in place. This literally happens all the time. The only difference here is that this incident had a good 911 call for us to hear.

Calm down people, there's nothing to see here, move along.
 
grip said:
Eventually, you call a doctor to confirm the death, then the coroners office or funeral picks up the body. Why 911 was called if no attempt to help was being offered is really the whole debacle.
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The call was made likely because the nurse also is required to do so by her employer.
 
Fisher said:
Following doctor's orders or her employment policies are not the only duties a nurse is subject to. Her license is predicated on another set of rules. If she were walking down the street, she could have just kept on walking by. She was not. She was in an employment setting as a nurse and quite frankly interfered with the 911 operators efforts to get someone on the telephone who would try to save the woman's life.
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She didn't interfere with anyone. Doing nothing is not interfering.
 
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