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Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

Napoleon said:
No, and no one ever said it would be easy or convenient but those issues are nothing compared to what the elderly face in these facilities. Knowing that the vast majority of these institutions represent an affront to human dignity is enough to dissuade me from ever accepting them as a viable option. The doping and physical abuse aside, 94% don't even meet basic health and safety codes, 30% are so understaffed that they spend less than 12 minutes a day with their patients and residents, and 54% less than two hours! If you're concerned about just taking the time for a few winks then how do you feel about 22 hours of zero interaction, oversight, or care surrounded by health and safety code violations?
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Placing someone in a nursing home does not mean abandoning them. It's not like a prison where you can only visit for a few minutes, once a week.
 
sangha said:
Placing someone in a nursing home does not mean abandoning them. It's not like a prison where you can only visit for a few minutes, once a week.
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If you dump someone in a nursing home knowing those facts then you are abandoning them. Its an attempt to absolve oneself of your obligations to help and provide for your parents in their time of need; mostly because they've become inconvenient.
 
Napoleon said:
No, and no one ever said it would be easy or convenient but those issues are nothing compared to what the elderly face in these facilities. Knowing that the vast majority of these institutions represent an affront to human dignity is enough to dissuade me from ever accepting them as a viable option. The doping and physical abuse aside, 94% don't even meet basic health and safety codes, 30% are so understaffed that they spend less than 12 minutes a day with their patients and residents, and 54% less than two hours! If you're concerned about just taking the time for a few winks then how do you feel about 22 hours of zero interaction, oversight, or care surrounded by health and safety code violations?
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I feel like I've already had to consider all this and to live with the consequences.

I feel like you have a very good heart and will to do right but that you also haven't lived what you're waxing indignant about. I fervently hope that there are more young folks out there asking the questions that you do and-far more important--taking action to make a difference.

In the meantime, please don't presume to preach to me about what I have already lived. And get back to me when you have a "viable option" that is a real solution to a real and growing problem.
 
sangha said:
Placing someone in a nursing home does not mean abandoning them. It's not like a prison where you can only visit for a few minutes, once a week.
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And it's not as if there sometimes isn't another choice.
 
Napoleon said:
If you dump someone in a nursing home knowing those facts then you are abandoning them. Its an attempt to absolve oneself of your obligations to help and provide for your parents in their time of need; mostly because they've become inconvenient.
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No, it's not

Repeating it doesn't make it any less untrue.
 
sangha said:
No, it's not. Repeating it doesn't make it any less untrue.
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Riiight. I'd be interested to see what you'd call dumping an elderly person into a system known and documented to be primarily dangerous, abusive, and even deadly. When you cede your responsibility to care for and provide assistance to someone then you are, by definition, abandoning.
 
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Napoleon said:
Riiight. I'd be interested to see what you'd call dumping an elderly person into a system known and documented to be primarily dangerous, abusive, and even deadly. When you cede care and assistance to someone else you are, by definition, abandoning.
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Spending 16 hours a day in a nursing home is not abandoning someone.

People have to sleep.

And many people have to work. We don't all have retired grandparents to dump our problems on
 
Napoleon said:
Riiight. I'd be interested to see what you'd call dumping an elderly person into a system known and documented to be primarily dangerous, abusive, and even deadly. When you cede care and assistance to someone else you are, by definition, abandoning.
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So what is your own first-hand experience? Have you had to make decisions for an elderly or otherwise infirm family member? Do you have a way to fix the system so as to better care for your family member right now? What is your solution?
 
Note: Railing against the fates isn't an option, and you also, unless you are fabulously wealthy, don't have a magic wand. In the here-and-now, what's your solution?
 
sangha said:
Spending 16 hours a day in a nursing home is not abandoning someone. People have to sleep.
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It surprises me than anyone can sleep knowing that they've put a loved a one in one of those places but you must have a stronger constitution than I.
 
Napoleon said:
It surprises me than anyone can sleep knowing that they've put a loved a one in one of those places but you must have a stronger constitution than I.
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So what did *you* do when your great-grandparent had Alzheimers'...that is, aside from dumping them on your granparents?
 
nota bene said:
So what is your own first-hand experience? Have you had to make decisions for an elderly or otherwise infirm family member? Do you have a way to fix the system so as to better care for your family member right now? What is your solution?
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None of my family have ever been dumped at a nursing home. Hire a home nurse Instead of paying a for-profit nursing home (oddly enough the worst offenders); even if it is just for the hours you need to sleep or work. Few elderly people actually need to be in a nursing home. If people actually cared about the quality of care and facilities they're exposing their loved ones to then the system wouldn't be as bad as it is today; but they don't and the sad reality is that most don't even notice until something unfortunate happens. When you're providing care from home; you control the environment.
 
sangha said:
So what did *you* do when your great-grandparent had Alzheimers'...that is, aside from dumping them on your granparents?
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I was still in high school and they lived a state away but I managed to visit on the weekends and spend time with her. She certainly wasn't dumped on my grandparents; she'd lived with them for many years before this and preferred to remain there (except when she thought FDR was President and had to go rivet bombers :mrgreen:). She was very well taken care of there until the day she died. I certainly didn't dump her into a dangerous, abusive, and deadly for-profit environment out of a sense of inconvenience.
 
Napoleon said:
I was still in high school and they lived a state away but I managed to visit on the weekends and spend time with her. She certainly wasn't dumped on my grandparents; she'd lived with them for many years before this and preferred to remain there (except when she thought FDR was President and had to go rivet bombers :mrgreen:). She was very well taken care of there until the day she died. I certainly didn't dump her into a dangerous, abusive, and deadly for-profit environment out of a sense of inconvenience.
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You "managed" to spend some time with her on the weekends?

Gee, what a sacrifice!!

I bet you slept just fine.

After all, it's not as if *you* had anything to worry about
 
sangha said:
You "managed" to spend some time with her on the weekends? Gee, what a sacrifice!!
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Indeed, over 400 miles roundtrip paid for by myself. Of course, we're talking about the difference between a teenager who knows that his loved one is where she should be and not exposed to danger and adults who knowingly put their loved ones in danger to make their own lives more convenient.

sangha said:
I bet you slept just fine.After all, it's not as if *you* had anything to worry about
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I was comfortable in the knowledge that she was well taken care of and not in the clutches of a for-profit industry with a "nurse" who does nothing but loom over residents, and complain about 911 operators, as they die in agony on the floor. Or like the poor woman at Life Care Centers of America Inc who was basically put on the rack for 84 minutes. Or the poor lady at Eureka Healthcare who choked to death on her dinner because the for-profit institution cut staff to increase profits and there was no one around to help her. Etc. For-profit healthcare, at any level, is a bad idea. Behold the fruits.
 
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Napoleon said:
Indeed, over 400 miles roundtrip paid for by myself. Of course, we're talking about the difference between a teenager who knows that his loved one is where she should be and not exposed to danger and adults who knowingly put their loved ones in danger to make their own lives more convenient.
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WOW!!! You traveled 400 miles, and paid for it. I'm sure that was a life-altering burden for you

And yes, I realize that a child with no burden of their own would have no trouble sleeping knowing that the work of providing 24 hr/day care was being provided by someone else.

I was comfortable in the knowledge that she was well taken care of and not in the clutches of a for-profit industry with a "nurse" who does nothing but loom over residents, and complain about 911 operators, as they die in agony on the floor. Or like the poor woman at Life Care Centers of America Inc who was basically put on the rack for 84 minutes. Or the poor lady at Eureka Healthcare who choked to death on her dinner because the for-profit institution cut staff to increase profits and there was no one around to help her. Etc.
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And I understand that while your family member descended into the hell of dementia, you were comfortable. And that's all that matters.

No need to worry yourself about what it was like for the grandparent you dumped them on. All you need to worry about is judging people making the hard decisions you never faced while pursuing your own interests.
 
sangha said:
WOW!!! You traveled 400 miles, and paid for it. I'm sure that was a life-altering burden for you. And yes, I realize that a child with no burden of their own would have no trouble sleeping knowing that the work of providing 24 hr/day care was being provided
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I've never considered it a burden, difficult to maintain on a weekly basis, but not a burden. I've certainly never considered or insinuated that my parents are a burden, unlike some people. Caring for your parents in their old age is a moral responsibility not a burden so don't boo-hoo to me about it. ;)

sangha said:
No need to worry yourself about what it was like for the grandparent you dumped them on. All you need to worry about is judging people making the hard decisions you never faced while pursuing your own interests.
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My grandmother never considered it a burden either; its what she wanted and acknowledged as her moral responsibility. These decisions are only difficult if you make the wrong ones. I think people have a natural sense of guilt about it because they know, in the vast majority of cases, they're not doing the right thing. Maybe the nurse in this case will too but I have no such expectation for the company's president or the director of this facility. Its par for the course in a for-profit system. They value money more than the life of their residents; which is why they didn't help her.
 
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Napoleon said:
I've never considered it a burden, difficult to maintain on a weekly basis, but not a burden. I've certainly never considered or insinuated that my parents are a burden, unlike some people. Caring for your parents in their old age is a moral responsibility not a burden so don't boo-hoo to me about it. ;)
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I'm not surprised you didn't consider it a burden. After all, it's not like you had to do the difficult work. You just dumped them on your grandparent.

My grandmother never considered it a burden either; its what she wanted and acknowledged as her moral responsibility. These decisions are only difficult if you make the wrong ones. I think people have a natural sense of guilt about it because they know, in the vast majority of cases, they're not doing the right thing. Maybe the nurse in this case will too but I have no such expectation for the company's president or the director of this facility. Its par for the course in a for-profit system. They value money more than the life of their residents; which is why they didn't help her.
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And I'm sure your grandmother confided her adult responsibilities to you, her grandchild. After all, that's what grandparents do, right? They don't ask their children to quit their jobs, or their grandchildren to drop out of college, because neither your parents nor you have any moral responsibility to care for your own family members. It's all on grandma, so there's no reason why you should lose any sleep while your great-grandparents mind slowly deteriorates. I'm sure that was comfortable experience for them, you know with the loss of memory and functioning bowels that always accompanies dementia.
 
Napoleon said:
None of my family have ever been dumped at a nursing home. Hire a home nurse Instead of paying a for-profit nursing home (oddly enough the worst offenders); even if it is just for the hours you need to sleep or work. Few elderly people actually need to be in a nursing home. If people actually cared about the quality of care and facilities they're exposing their loved ones to then the system wouldn't be as bad as it is today; but they don't and the sad reality is that most don't even notice until something unfortunate happens. When you're providing care from home; you control the environment.
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You really don't know what you are talking about. A "home nurse" is not there 24/7 and few people can afford a full time "home nurse" - since even at just $15 an hour that would cost over $10,000 per month, nor does a home nurse provide any age similar companionship. Having a nurse visit each day leaves the elderly person alone nearly a majority of the time.
 
ttwtt78640 said:
No links? Just how long was this old woman supposed to live? 92? 103? Do you have any idea what her medical condition was? Many people die younger than 86. Not everyone that dies was "abandoned" or "mistreated".
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I'd be interested in knowing if the poster quoted supports euthanasia. I seem to see many people who are outraged at this type of situation, also fully throw their support behind killing old people.
 
Napoleon said:
Only if you are a layperson. The guidelines clearly state that a medical professional may check for a pulse prior to administering CPR as they are trained to detect it.
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Yes, and the woman in question was not actually a nurse or any other kind of health care worker, so the layperson rule applies to her.

(Actually, they teach that rule to health care workers, too.)
 
MaggieD said:
Please site. I can't find anything that contradicts first reports.
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"It was later revealed that Ms Bayless had no Do Not Resuscitate form on file."
Lorraine Bayless: Officials at Glenwood Gardens say staffer who denied CPR was NOT a nurse | Mail Online

"Reports identify her at Lorraine Bayless and confirm she did not have a do-not-resuscitate order. "
Dramatic 911 tape reveals dispatcher

"News reports out of California identified the patient as Lorraine Bayless, who reportedly never put herself under do-not-resuscitate orders."
California CPR case shines light on what retirement facilities offer - KansasCity.com
 
Black Manta said:
I think she did the right thing, call me paranoid. I know when I work at an account here, we are not allowed to render anything aside from basic are you OK? And call for paramedics. Reason being if someone is hurt on your property even though I am protected, the property is not.
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If living in a senior community puts you at greater risk of not receiving medical assistance, that's a huge problem. Makes you wonder why the people in that community are shelling out what are no doubt exhorbitant costs to live there. Will be interesting to see if they decide to do anything after the criminal investigation concludes.
 
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