Page 7 of 27 FirstFirst ... 5678917 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 262

Thread: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

  1. #61
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 10:41 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    The American Heart Association is dealing with odds - and openly admits that CPR they recommend will break or facture ribs 1/3rd of the time! And that includes for ALL people - including perfectly health and young - not the elderly with frail bones as is so common.

    Learn More

    So... let's be RELEVANT and in terms of someone 87 years old and of such low health as to already be in Assisted Living and now with "difficulty in breathing" (no indication of heart problems nor "gasping."

    Here is the opinion of doctors SPECIFICALLY IN THE AREA OF THE ELDERLY - where the Heart Association is talking about EVERYONE as generic:


    It is speculated that the success rate for cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) has been steadily declining since it was introduced nearly 40 years ago. Initially designed for limited clinical situations, this procedure is now used on many individuals who would have been considered inappropriate candidates in the past.1 Elderly patients may fall into this category. The US Patient Self-Determination Act,2 followed by aggressive public campaigns during the past few decades, has expanded the role of CPR so that it is now considered the current standard of care. Thus, many patients are subjected to medically futile procedures that offer little, if any, acceptable survival benefits. The introduction of the do-not-resuscitate (DNR) order has allowed patients the opportunity to weigh personal beliefs against the perceived risks and benefits of CPR.

    The observation that age is not a clinical predictor of mortality in CPR is being challenged by the current literature.3 Survival-to-discharge rates vary among these studies; however, they rarely exceed 10% of the patients leaving the hospital alive. Outcomes predominately reveal that a mere 3% to 5% of patients are surviving CPR to discharge, and a survival rate of 0% has been reported.3–6 The emerging consensus is that CPR may not only be inappropriate therapy for some patients, it may constitute medical futility in many cases.

    http://www.jaoa.org/content/106/7/402.full

    Only 5% to as low a 0% (none) of elderly survive CPR - and that is not even considering that 87 year old woman was still breathing and no indication given of any heart ailment.
    Last edited by joko104; 03-04-13 at 05:53 PM.

  2. #62
    Light△Bender

    grip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    ☚ ☛
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 02:42 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    17,224
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Another reason some people won't give mouth to mouth without a respirator is because of possible infection. Not likely in an 87 yr old but HIV, Hep C and other deadly diseases can be passed through saliva.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

  3. #63
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    United States
    Last Seen
    01-21-16 @ 12:21 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    51,124

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    but your post was more interested in this.......
    In what? Did you mean to include a pic?

  4. #64
    Maquis Admiral
    maquiscat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 07:22 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    8,010

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    911 operators are telephone receptionists and nothing else. They have no authority and nothing they say offers any protection.

    Setting aside an DNR agreement, CPR on an 86 year old woman could easily be lethal. Show me medical material that CPR in that situation was correct. Was the 911 operator a licensed doctor? Seems you think so.
    Are any ambulance workers licensed doctors? None that I am aware of, and I personally know several. So is it then your opinion that they not make the CPR call either? This counterargument is based upon your argument that it needs to be a licensed doctor to make that call. Furthermore, there are many 911 operators who ARE trained in such matters, many whom are retired or former EMT's who do know when to make that call.

    As to the DNR, the news reports I have heard stated that the woman who dies did NOT have a DNR. At no point on the 911 recordings that I heard did the nurse tell the dispatcher that the woman had a DNR. I know here that would have stopped the call then and there or at least the effort of the operator to push for CPR. Is there some reliable source that states whether or not a DNR was in place? The director of the facility didn't even mention it in his statement. I'm remembering back to Sandy Hook where so much news was put out that wasn't even near correct, so I am taking the whole DNR/no DNR with a grain of salt.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    She didn't interfere with anyone. Doing nothing is not interfering.
    Deliberately not handing the phone to someone who could save the life could very well constitute interference.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Since the woman died at the hospital, she didn't even need CPR. So the 911 operator could have just been giving incompetent and even life threatening advice/demands.
    That is simply a bad argument, although I do understand what you mean about the unintended consequences of aid. However, CPR too late can be just as bad as no CPR to begin with. We will never know in all honesty whether or not timely CPR would have saved the woman's life, mostly because we don't know what other complications there might have been. But to say that just because she got CPR later and died at the hospital that she didn't need CPR right away, is simply ignorant.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    The story says the woman was still breathing. That she died later in the hospital. Accordingly, CPR would NOT have helped in any way and only poised potential to harm or kill the woman. You NEVER do CPR on someone who is breathing for MANY reasons.

    For example, difficulty breathing could be the result of some obstruction (such as food) restricting breathing. Blowing into a person's mouth is exactly what NOT to do as it pushes the obstruction deeper and can cause total blockage - and DEATH. A person "barely breathing" is NO indication of ANY heart problem whatsoever! Doing CPR on someone having difficulty breathing would make less sense than putting a bandage on the person's leg - other than putting a bandage on the person's leg wouldn't harm the person.
    I Understand and agree with your point on the chocking potential and all, but if such was the case why did the fire dept personnel start CPR, according to the article? If it was not necessary, then they, who are trained to recognize such things, should not have done CPR.

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    CPR in the field is indicated ONLY if the patient has stopped breathing. A 911 operator should not be dispensing or suggesting medical treatment. Had the staffer started CPR as per the operator's instructions and the patient had died then because of it, the operator should be on the hook for negligence.
    But that is one of the points of these 911 operators. To provide medical guidance and assistance within certain guidelines while EMT's are en route. This is what they are trained to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Naw, the 911 operator was wrong, but it is well understood that 911 operators have to be best-guess know-alls. That's just reality. It is then UP TO YOU do decide to follow the best-guess-advice or not. You, then, are responsible for your decision and can't blame it on the 911 operator - even if doing what the 911 operator said.
    Depends upon the local laws, but most places I am aware of limit or eliminate the liability of a person following directions from a 911 operator.

    Got to go. I'll catch up on the rest of this thread later. And Joko I'm not trying to pick on you personally. Your posts just had the comments that I felt that I needed to respond to. In fact I didn't even notice all but one was yours until just a bit ago.

  5. #65
    Sage
    sangha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lower Hudson Valley, NY
    Last Seen
    09-17-17 @ 05:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    59,990

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    You do NOT do CPR on someone who is breathing! Even if "barely" breathing. .....Don't you people know that?!
    Nonsense. You don't know what you're talking but that doesnt stop you from spouting off

    Cardiopulmonary resuscitation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) is an emergency procedure, performed in an effort to manually preserve intact brain function until further measures are taken to restore spontaneous blood circulation and breathing in a person in cardiac arrest. It is indicated in those who are unresponsive with no breathing or abnormal breathing, for example, agonal respirations.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  6. #66
    King Of The Dog Pound
    Black Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    South Florida
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    34,516

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    I am a certified rescue diver which includes first aid, oxygen & even defibrillation etc. As a security officer I am not allowed to help anyone due to lawsuits. It is sad, but in this sue happy society we live in it's best just not to get involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #67
    King Of The Dog Pound
    Black Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    South Florida
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    34,516

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    Nonsense. You don't know what you're talking but that doesnt stop you from spouting off

    Cardiopulmonary resuscitation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Actually you probably would not preform CPR on someone who is breathing. Wiki is probably not the best source. I have been CPR certified for a long time. You do not do CPR if the person is breathing. You can cause more damage than good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #68
    Sage
    Taylor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    US
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:57 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,170

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    So... let's be RELEVANT and in terms of someone 87 years old and of such low health as to already be in Assisted Living and now with "difficulty in breathing" (no indication of heart problems nor "gasping.")
    Perhaps you didn't read the transcript or listen to the call. The call began with with "We have a lady that looks like she’s fainted or had a heart problem or something." The call lasted for over 7 minutes. Around 5-6 minutes into the conversation, the nurse says "She's taken three breaths."

    Indication of heart problems? Yes.
    Indication that patient was not breathing sufficiently? Yes.

    Seriously, if you're waiting several minutes in between breaths to see if she'll breathe again, you're doing it wrong.

  9. #69
    Sage
    sangha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lower Hudson Valley, NY
    Last Seen
    09-17-17 @ 05:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    59,990

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    Actually you probably would not preform CPR on someone who is breathing. Wiki is probably not the best source. I have been CPR certified for a long time. You do not do CPR if the person is breathing. You can cause more damage than good.
    Well, Wiki isn't the best source for anything, there are reasons to not perform CPR on someone who is having trouble, and that having trouble breathing does not automatically mean "start CPR". However, the claim I was refuting was that CPR is never to be performed on someone who is still breathing, no matter how poor their breathing was. That is just untrue
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  10. #70
    King Of The Dog Pound
    Black Dog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    South Florida
    Last Seen
    @
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    34,516

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Perhaps you didn't read the transcript or listen to the call. The call began with with "We have a lady that looks like she’s fainted or had a heart problem or something." The call lasted for over 7 minutes. Around 5-6 minutes into the conversation, the nurse says "She's taken three breaths."

    Indication of heart problems? Yes.
    Indication that patient was not breathing sufficiently? Yes.

    Seriously, if you're waiting several minutes in between breaths to see if she'll breathe again, you're doing it wrong.
    If she only took three breaths in several minutes, I would not have given her CPR either. I mean outside of breaking a few ribs, lung over expansion etc are all dangers if someone is still breathing. Giving her oxygen would have been a better idea if available. Until the laws are such you cannot be sued for rendering aid, what can you do?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

Page 7 of 27 FirstFirst ... 5678917 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •