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Thread: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

  1. #51
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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    Although I've had a change of heart on this issue based on information I have received from a few doctors and nurses I'm associated with and now believe that the nurse actually did the right thing I still have serious concerns about this kind of issue.

    My grandmother is 96 years old and has dementia. In early December of last year she was beginning to become belligerent which is very much unlike her. The doctors put her on some kind of mood altering drug. When that didn't seem to be working they upped the dosage. Another doctor figured that she'd had a stroke and that was what was causing the behavior change so they put her on another med for that and soon upped that dosage as well. The week before Christmas she was like a damned zombie. When you looked into her eyes there was nothing there and she was exhibiting signs of being in a lot of pain. One of the caregivers at the assisted living facility she was in suggested that perhaps she had a UTI but getting a doctor to coordinate with the staff and all was getting ridiculous so we took her to the ER where we explained the situation and had them test for a UTI. She did have a serious infection and we were asked what we wanted done.

    We opted to have the infection treated and see how things went. We also had them take her off of all the medications except the antibiotics. It was a rather "interesting" couple of days but by day 3 she was coming around and doing fine. Today she is just as much off her rocker as she was before but once again she is happy and wandering around as usual. I mention this because if the decision was left completely to the medical professionals she would have been left to die....needlessly.

    In the case of the woman in CA it seems that there was a significant likelihood that CPR would have damaged ribs, punctured lungs, etc. My understanding from the pros is that it was more likely than not that even if her life were saved at the time that she would have been on her way out anyway and in substantial pain along the way. I can understand that. I don't like it but I can understand it. I would just like to say, however, that the definition of "extraordinary means" to save ones life seems to be getting less and less "extraordinary" over time and that the DNR is easily used as an excuse to simply do nothing and if you have a loved one in some kind of managed care I would HIGHLY recommend that you make it a point to be as clear as possible about what you do and do not want done in a given situation.
    What makes most sense is to give medical power of attorney to someone you trust to decide to "pull the plug" rather than a blanket DNR agreement.

    I agree the medical profession is too quick to just drug people in to zombie-ish as a cure-all. It's like when ERs and Doctors give people "Z-packs" (steroids). Its just feel-good zombie medicine that cures nothing.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Let's have a link to that info, because it's 100% wrong and would lead to premature death and likely injury. If they are breathing and you force CPR, you can kill them.
    You're spreading disinformation. Official 2010 AHA recommendation is to immediately start chest compressions in cases where victim is "unresponsive" and there's "no breathing or no normal breathing (only gasping)"

    F3_large.jpg


    http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/...6/F3.large.jpg

    "For example, if a lone healthcare provider sees a victim suddenly collapse, the provider may assume that the victim has suffered a sudden VF cardiac arrest; once the provider has verified that the victim is unresponsive and not breathing or is only gasping, the provider should immediately activate the emergency response system, get and use an AED, and give CPR. " - 2010 American Heart Association Guidelines for Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation and Emergency Cardiovascular Care Science

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    social justice is for everyone
    There's no such thing, and that has nothing to do with this thread or the non-problem it's about.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Since the article states she died later at the hospital, she didn't need CPR and doing so on an 86 year old woman who didn't need it could have been lethal on it's own. Pounding and pressing on the chest of someone that old can break ribs pressing them into lungs and heart.

    This appears an opportunity for the media to create some OMG RAGE! crap before knowing the facts - and sadly too many people go along with it.

    Here is what appears the real story.
    1. An 86 year old woman collapsed.
    2. Per policy, a staffer promptly called 911
    3. A 911 telephone receptionist - with NO medical license - decided to play doctor and tried to get the staffer to be her nurse, for which the nurse refused.
    4. The woman was transported to the hospital, still alive, meaning CPR was fully not necessary and would have been harmful or lethal.

    IF those are the facts, then ABC and those raging along with that for-profit corporation (that makes money by making attention getters) are 100% wrong factually (and therefore also otherwise.)
    yes l see , joko

    however l believe that the nurse should have helped her no matter what happens after her medical attention to old woman
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Thanks for the link, but wow, they jumped the shark assuming a lay person would understand the difference between difficulty breathing and gasping for breath. I'll go by my hospital training and what I learned in nursing school which is that you never start compressions on a breathing patient (unless you need the bed - sorry, gallows humor).

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Is it just me - or does this seem actually to be quite confusing.

    Who said they wouldn't do it? The 911 dispatcher? Someone at the residence facility? The emergency crew?

    I think it's just me...
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    I want to know under what authority this phone call recording was released. Why is this public interest? No laws were broken.

    If you've had a parent in one of these types of facilities, you know that allowing a person to pass away when her time comes is sometimes more compassionate than rushing her to the hospital, sticking IVs in her arms, ordering $10K worth of tests (charged to medicare), pumping them full of antibiotics or some expensive medication to prolong cancer.

    And I hate how the nurse is being characterized as unfeeling. I've been there, watched both parents die peacefully. The nurse on the phone was very brave. Her only mistake was not hanging up on the 911 operator. People who work in these facilities watch death happen slowly all day everyday. It sounds like she experienced peaceful final moments. The other residents and the family are not upset by this at all. That is very telling.

    "Independent" living is a misnomer. Most residents have to have their own private nurse part-time or full time. If you're "independent" you can drive a car and fix your own food, file taxes and pay bills. People enter these facilities because they can no longer live without some level of help and the social aspect is therapeutic. That's why this facility is listed as "independent/assisted/Alzheimer's care." It's for people who can not live alone and need a little more help with each passing day.

    This is a private matter for the family who seems to be at peace with their 87yo mother passing away. The media and blogs hyping this should be ashamed.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Thanks for the link, but wow, they jumped the shark assuming a lay person would understand the difference between difficulty breathing and gasping for breath. I'll go by my hospital training and what I learned in nursing school which is that you never start compressions on a breathing patient (unless you need the bed - sorry, gallows humor).
    Good enough for me:

    "The 2010 AHA Guidelines for CPR and ECC are based on the most current and comprehensive review of resuscitation literature ever published, the 2010 ILCOR International Consensus on CPR and ECC Science With Treatment Recommendations. The 2010 evidence evaluation process included 356 resuscitation experts from 29 countries who reviewed, analyzed, evaluated, debated, and discussed research and hypotheses through in-person meetings, teleconferences, and online sessions ("webinars") during the 36-month period before the 2010 Consensus Conference. The experts produced 411 scientific evidence reviews on 277 topics in resuscitation and emergency cardiovascular care. The process included structured evidence evaluation, analysis, and cataloging of the literature."

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    There's no such thing, and that has nothing to do with this thread or the non-problem it's about.
    but your post was more interested in this.......
    "Sovereignty is not given, it is taken." ATATÜRK

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    Is it just me - or does this seem actually to be quite confusing.

    Who said they wouldn't do it? The 911 dispatcher? Someone at the residence facility? The emergency crew?

    I think it's just me...
    Ok - I read several other articles, etc - I understand who did what, now.



    The nurse wasn't required by her job description - so she's not liable for anything. If she went out a grabbed a passerby and asked them to help and they said no - would they be sued? (No)

    So - if there's a problem it's the policy that keep a staff on hand which is not required to perform emergency services of this nature. . the policy/employment requirements should be considered here -the why she was told not to . . . not the fact that she did so.

    CPR isn't a fun and simple thing - a lot of times ribs can be broken, lungs punctured . . . and so on. What if that happened? (this is why they were told not to do it in the first place).

    I'm sure there are facilities that do required and expect their staff to do such things - and so I suggest people figure out what's what before sticking granny there to begin with.
    A screaming comes across the sky.
    It has happened before, but there is nothing to compare it to now.
    Pynchon - Gravity's Rainbow

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