Page 5 of 27 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 262

Thread: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

  1. #41
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    12-03-17 @ 03:32 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by muciti View Post
    Without the CPR she was going to die. That much is clear, and proven at this point. CPR may have saved her, or it may have been pointless. We do know that it would not have resulted in more death. If you are in a position to save a life, even if it's a small chance, you should do it. I am not saying she should be legally required, or even have her license suspended if she doesnt. But as a human being, if you have an opportunity to save a life you should do it. As a nurse who is trained at the very least in CPR and you just watch someone die because you are scared of losing your job or a lawsuit then you are just a ****ty person. If as an employer you put your companies profits above human life you are a ****ty person.
    CPR could not have possibly saved her. The woman was breathing. No indication whatsoever her heart had stopped.

    The nurse was exactly correct and the 911 operator 100% wrong.

  2. #42
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    12-03-17 @ 03:32 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    CPR in the field is indicated ONLY if the patient has stopped breathing. A 911 operator should not be dispensing or suggesting medical treatment. Had the staffer started CPR as per the operator's instructions and the patient had died then because of it, the operator should be on the hook for negligence.
    Naw, the 911 operator was wrong, but it is well understood that 911 operators have to be best-guess know-alls. That's just reality. It is then UP TO YOU do decide to follow the best-guess-advice or not. You, then, are responsible for your decision and can't blame it on the 911 operator - even if doing what the 911 operator said.

  3. #43
    Sage
    clownboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Oregon
    Last Seen
    08-17-16 @ 10:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    26,087

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Naw, the 911 operator was wrong, but it is well understood that 911 operators have to be best-guess know-alls. That's just reality. It is then UP TO YOU do decide to follow the best-guess-advice or not. You, then, are responsible for your decision and can't blame it on the 911 operator - even if doing what the 911 operator said.
    I disagree. They should not be dispensing medical advice or counselling medical treatment. They are NOT medical professionals in any sense of the word. They should take the call and roll the appropriate response agency. If it's an immediate medical need, the operator should put them on the line with a qualified medical professional.

  4. #44
    Sage
    Taylor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    US
    Last Seen
    Today @ 02:33 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    6,167

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    CPR in the field is indicated ONLY if the patient has stopped breathing.
    Not true at all. The American Heart Association recommends that compressions start immediately on anyone who is not responding and not breathing normally - i.e. the same state this woman was in.

  5. #45
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    12-03-17 @ 03:32 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    I disagree. They should not be dispensing medical advice or counselling medical treatment. They are NOT medical professionals in any sense of the word. They should take the call and roll the appropriate response agency. If it's an immediate medical need, the operator should put them on the line with a qualified medical professional.
    I started out by immediately defending the nurse, but also will defend the 911 operator. Because of reality. There is no qualified medical professional in the room where 911 operators answer. IF it is a no-breathing and no-heartbeat situation, the person is DEAD before the 911 operator could get and convey competent medical advice.

    911 operators get ever imaginable situation of every possible kind. IF it APPEARS immediate life-death, the 911 operator - whether as an employee or as a fellow human - has to do the best she/he can. Sometimes they get it wrong. But at least someone is trying to be level headed with some rudimentary knowledge that is a little bit about almost everything and expertise at nothing.

    Finally, a person is generally NOT liable for advice they give to someone else. If you told me some situation and I replied, "hell, you ought to go punch that SOB in the nose!" and you do, I am not a co-conspirator in you being guilty of assault.

    There is a misconception of what 911 is. They are message takers and info conveyors - and nothing else legally. What they say has no legal weight either way whatsoever - other than MAYBE to show good intentions of the person if following 911 advice. BUT, ultimately, the decision to follow that advice or not always comes down to the individual.

    If 911 operators were liable for advice, then all a 911 operator could say is "let me get your number and I'll get a message to everyone so everyone can decide who should do something - if anything - and maybe someone will come or call you back - or maybe not" - and hang up. If the person asked "what should I do?" all the 911 operator could say is "sorry, I can't give advice to anyone."

  6. #46
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Last Seen
    04-03-13 @ 11:16 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    458

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by 66gardeners View Post
    I don't want to take sides as I think we do not know all the facts. I heard that her family is OK with what happened. The woman may have a "do not resuscitate" order. In that case the nurse could have been sued for disobeying a lawful order. Older people are very frail, and the possibility of breaking her ribs is very high.
    Great point.

    Not only that we don't know what health issues she had: high blood pressure, kidney or liver disease, respiratory illness, cancer, dementia?

    As soon as the family said they are satisfied with the care, this story should be over. But because of some overzealous 911 operator the country gets to be 'outraged' at something.

    Also, several versions of the story refer to "her nurse" meaning she had her own nurse part-time or 24/7. Which means she was probably waiting for a bed to open up in the alzheimer's wing.

  7. #47
    Sage
    clownboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Oregon
    Last Seen
    08-17-16 @ 10:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    26,087

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Not true at all. The American Heart Association recommends that compressions start immediately on anyone who is not responding and not breathing normally - i.e. the same state this woman was in.
    Let's have a link to that info, because it's 100% wrong and would lead to premature death and likely injury. If they are breathing and you force CPR, you can kill them.

  8. #48
    Sage
    Lutherf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Tucson, AZ
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:29 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    24,634

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Although I've had a change of heart on this issue based on information I have received from a few doctors and nurses I'm associated with and now believe that the nurse actually did the right thing I still have serious concerns about this kind of issue.

    My grandmother is 96 years old and has dementia. In early December of last year she was beginning to become belligerent which is very much unlike her. The doctors put her on some kind of mood altering drug. When that didn't seem to be working they upped the dosage. Another doctor figured that she'd had a stroke and that was what was causing the behavior change so they put her on another med for that and soon upped that dosage as well. The week before Christmas she was like a damned zombie. When you looked into her eyes there was nothing there and she was exhibiting signs of being in a lot of pain. One of the caregivers at the assisted living facility she was in suggested that perhaps she had a UTI but getting a doctor to coordinate with the staff and all was getting ridiculous so we took her to the ER where we explained the situation and had them test for a UTI. She did have a serious infection and we were asked what we wanted done.

    We opted to have the infection treated and see how things went. We also had them take her off of all the medications except the antibiotics. It was a rather "interesting" couple of days but by day 3 she was coming around and doing fine. Today she is just as much off her rocker as she was before but once again she is happy and wandering around as usual. I mention this because if the decision was left completely to the medical professionals she would have been left to die....needlessly.

    In the case of the woman in CA it seems that there was a significant likelihood that CPR would have damaged ribs, punctured lungs, etc. My understanding from the pros is that it was more likely than not that even if her life were saved at the time that she would have been on her way out anyway and in substantial pain along the way. I can understand that. I don't like it but I can understand it. I would just like to say, however, that the definition of "extraordinary means" to save ones life seems to be getting less and less "extraordinary" over time and that the DNR is easily used as an excuse to simply do nothing and if you have a loved one in some kind of managed care I would HIGHLY recommend that you make it a point to be as clear as possible about what you do and do not want done in a given situation.

  9. #49
    On Vacation
    joko104's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Last Seen
    12-03-17 @ 03:32 AM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    31,568
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    911 operators do not and cannot give commands. They are not police officers. They are telephone answerers.

  10. #50
    Sage
    clownboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Oregon
    Last Seen
    08-17-16 @ 10:31 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    26,087

    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I started out by immediately defending the nurse, but also will defend the 911 operator. Because of reality. There is no qualified medical professional in the room where 911 operators answer. IF it is a no-breathing and no-heartbeat situation, the person is DEAD before the 911 operator could get and convey competent medical advice.

    911 operators get ever imaginable situation of every possible kind. IF it APPEARS immediate life-death, the 911 operator - whether as an employee or as a fellow human - has to do the best she/he can. Sometimes they get it wrong. But at least someone is trying to be level headed with some rudimentary knowledge that is a little bit about almost everything and expertise at nothing.

    Finally, a person is generally NOT liable for advice they give to someone else. If you told me some situation and I replied, "hell, you ought to go punch that SOB in the nose!" and you do, I am not a co-conspirator in you being guilty of assault.

    There is a misconception of what 911 is. They are message takers and info conveyors - and nothing else legally. What they say has no legal weight either way whatsoever - other than MAYBE to show good intentions of the person if following 911 advice. BUT, ultimately, the decision to follow that advice or not always comes down to the individual.

    If 911 operators were liable for advice, then all a 911 operator could say is "let me get your number and I'll get a message to everyone so everyone can decide who should do something - if anything - and maybe someone will come or call you back - or maybe not" - and hang up. If the person asked "what should I do?" all the 911 operator could say is "sorry, I can't give advice to anyone."
    The operator can put the person calling on the line with the same EMTs that are responding to the call - I've seen it done many times. The ONLY job of the 911 operator is to contact the appropriate agency for response, gather info and relay immediately to the responding agency and to keep the caller calm while response is on the way. Medical advice or any kind is outside their purview. Might as well ask some random dude rubbernecking at the scene for medical advice

Page 5 of 27 FirstFirst ... 3456715 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •