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Thread: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Her only concern was whether or not the correct policy was being followed.
    If I ever have some kind of emergency, I hope that people don't follow policies that have been formulated by people who know what they're doing, and instead I hope that everybody just does whatever the **** they think is best

    Stockboys, admin assts, computer programmers, just do whatever comes to mind!!

    Don't worry about me resisting....I"m unconscious
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    You're supposed to follow your facility's policy. It isnt the nurse's fault. It costs a lot of time and money to become a nurse. Are ya going to take care of the unemployed nurse and her bills?

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    If I ever have some kind of emergency, I hope that people don't follow policies that have been formulated by people who know what they're doing, and instead I hope that everybody just does whatever the **** they think is best

    Stockboys, admin assts, computer programmers, just do whatever comes to mind!!

    Don't worry about me resisting....I"m unconscious
    Probably the best thing would be to quickly strip the ends of a lamp cord and do cardio-electric shock from the wall plug. But ideally, if the cord long enough, 220 volt from the dryer or an oven. That'd be the best whatever **** that comes to mind. They do electric shock to revive a person. So if you see someone is unconscious and breathing strangely, hit them with 220 half a dozen times and then start rapidly beating on the person's chest.

    Afterall, that's better than doing nothing.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Family: CA woman denied CPR wanted no intervention - CBS News

    Bayless' family said she was aware that Glenwood Gardens did not offer trained medical staff, yet opted to live there anyway. "It was our beloved mother and grandmother's wish to die naturally and without any kind of life prolonging intervention," said the statement. "We understand that the 911 tape of this event has caused concern, but our family knows that mom had full knowledge of the limitations of Glenwood Gardens and is at peace."

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    You mind changing the oil while you're down there?

    So this senior living community treats it employees as well as its residents. After all this nurse did for them, they've decided to put her on administrative leave after deciding days later that she misinterpreted company policy regarding CPR. Class act. The good news for her is that no criminal charges and likely no civil lawsuit. Perhaps she'll be able to get back to work after this all blows over. Though... If they start losing customers, who do you think will be among the first employees to be laid off?

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    And finally, the police are saying they are investigating and thus far have found nothing illegal in what happened. However, several commenters on these articles have noted it IS illegal for the 911 operators to dispense medical advice, and yet they get away with counselling CPR on a daily basis.
    I went and interviewed a couple of actual EMT's about this story. First off they said that indeed it IS legal for 911 operators to dispense certain medical advice over the phone such as how and when to perform CPR. Obviously they cannot recommend drugs or any procedure that is not of an emergency nature and they have written guidelines as to what they are allowed to put out.

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Agreed where in your case these are EMTs answering the phone. However, as you noted, that's not the case everywhere.

    What are your thoughts on 911 personnel offerring to take legal culpability for the county? Because that's what this one did. She advised the caller that the county would take any legal heat.
    As I understood it, they can't take on culpability per se', however, per federal law and many state laws know as Samaritan Laws, anyone who is not a licensed medical provider attempting to render aid in good faith can not be held legally liable. Conversely, anyone who is a licensed medical provider,e.g. EMT, RN, LNP, MD, etc, MUST stop and at least offer to render aid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    You don't perform CPR on someone who's breathing, even just a little. You give them oxygen. You sure as hell don't perform chest compressions on someone with a pulse.
    Incorrect, again per actual the actual EMT's I interviewed. Irregular or infrequent breathing does indeed warrant the initiation of assisted breathing. Weak or improper heart beat warrants the initiation of chest compressions.

    As a side note, they also described to me the machines they now carry on the ambulances that does the compression and "bagging" for them. It was rather fascinating, and they says it really frees them up for binding wounds, administering drugs, and other procedures, while also allowing them to operate with a smaller crew (they can operate with as few as 3 people when needed).

    Quote Originally Posted by lizzie View Post
    Well, maybe it's just me, but when I'm 86, and a similar event happens to me, I want that nurse to be there, and I want her to do the same thing- well except for the calling 911 part. I don't want to have my chest pounded on, and I don't want to live on a ventilator with brain damage until someone who loves me has the sense to let me go.
    And that is why you get a DNR, because by law without that, all licensed medical providers are required to try to resuscitate you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    They're evidently feeling some heat along those lines - the community has since come out to clarify that she was not acting in the role of a nurse when she called, so she shouldn't be treated as if she were a nurse.
    Again per the EMT's anyone who is a licensed medical provider is required by law to render aid at any time, even when they are off duty and even when not in their home state. If an RN has a second job as a grocery bagger and a person goes into a heart attack in the grocery store, unless there is someone there more qualified than she is, she must begin providing aid.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    As a health care worker ya need to follow your facility's policy. If the nurse followed their policy and ya disagree with it, try to change the policy legally.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    As a health care worker ya need to follow your facility's policy. If the nurse followed their policy and ya disagree with it, try to change the policy legally.
    Policy does not override law. Now if the woman who made the call was not a licensed medical provider (which can range from EMT to any nurse type to doctor and others) then fine policy was followed. But the law requires that a licensed medical provider perform resuscitation efforts unless a DNR is present. If indeed she was licensed she could very well lose it as well as be subject to legal action from the state or federal.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    Policy does not override law. Now if the woman who made the call was not a licensed medical provider (which can range from EMT to any nurse type to doctor and others) then fine policy was followed. But the law requires that a licensed medical provider perform resuscitation efforts unless a DNR is present. If indeed she was licensed she could very well lose it as well as be subject to legal action from the state or federal.
    Then wouldn't tha policy makers take responsibility?? If the policy contradicts the law then administration or policy-makers should be held accountable and not the nurse. How else does the nurse survive if policy clashes with law? The pt was 87 and had a DNR so there's more reason not to help. If the nurse violated policy she could get fired or maybe worse. In school you're always taught to follow facility policies and procedures. So many angry peeps don't even work in the health care world so they act on emotions.

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    Re: Calif. woman dies after nurse refuses to perform CPR

    Quote Originally Posted by Solaris View Post
    Then wouldn't tha policy makers take responsibility?? If the policy contradicts the law then administration or policy-makers should be held accountable and not the nurse. How else does the nurse survive if policy clashes with law? The pt was 87 and had a DNR so there's more reason not to help. If the nurse violated policy she could get fired or maybe worse. In school you're always taught to follow facility policies and procedures. So many angry peeps don't even work in the health care world so they act on emotions.
    Age is irrelevant. There is nothing in any law that states that licensed medical providers do not have to provide aid if the patient is a certain age or older. You need to show me a source other than posters that the woman had a DNR, because every news story I've run across states that she did NOT have a DNR. And I noted that a DNR legally overrides everything. That would be this part (Emphasis added):

    Quote Originally Posted by maquiscat View Post
    But the law requires that a licensed medical provider perform resuscitation efforts unless a DNR is present.
    I believed I also noted that if the caller to 911 was simply called "nurse" and was not indeed a licensed medical provider then the law does not cover her. The key point there is licensed. And no, according to the EMT's I interviewed, regardless of the policy a licensed medical provider is still liable if they fail to provide or offer aid without a DNR being present. The company may still fire the woman and certainly that is wrong, but depending on the state it may not be illegal. A lot depends upon how the facility is categorized by law and how it is funded. If it receives Medicaid/Medicare then they are required to have licensed medical staff on hand and perform resuscitive(sp?) services, again unless the DNR is present.

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